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The Shift from Productivity to Purpose W/ Phabien Doiron #14

Do you ever find yourself caught up on the hamster wheel of life? Have you ever experienced burnout? Do you feel like there are old stories or parts of you holding you back from becoming the best version of yourself? In this episode, my guest, Phabien Doiron, and I dive deep into these topics and so much more! Tune in to learn how doing your 'inner work' can lead to transformations in your personal and professional life.


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Phabien Doiron 0:00

As an entrepreneur, what am I doing to start co creating a new reality where employees can have better mental, emotional, spiritual and physical health? And if I'm only in it for the money, or the productivity or the efficiency, and I'm trying to control everything, or put procedures and things in place or manipulate people and doing things, we're never going to have that reality.

Stuart Murray 0:31

Welcome to episode number 14 of the connected movement podcast. I'm your host, Steve Murray. Are you disillusioned with our old outdated systems and stories? Are you tired of the growing polarization in society? So am I my aim is to engage in and unpack conversations with people from all walks of life as a means of CO creating a way forward for humanity. Today's guest is foggy and water phobia is a serial entrepreneur. He loves getting involved in new business plans, ventures and volunteering for meaningful causes. He is a founder of a highly successful heating, cooling and refrigeration company called PhD eco air. In 2018. He was awarded Entrepreneur of the Year by the bogus and Chamber of Commerce, and was recognized as one of 40 finalists for monkeys top 20 under 40 awards in 2022. Fabian is also leveraging his expertise and entrepreneurship and his passion for service as a new path as a business and a life coach who uses a variety of personal healing modalities as well as powerful leadership strategies to offer support and guidance for people to find their own inner wisdom to heal and evolve into the best version of themselves. I really hope you enjoy this episode. And before we dive in a thank you to our sponsor, Karen Phytoplankton. Many daily discomforts are the result of malnourishment and you may be malnourished. If you crash in the afternoon, you have digestive issues, you get lots of headaches, have trouble sleeping, you have muscle or joint pain, have trouble concentrating and so on. The good news is the right supplementation can help with this. I've personally benefited from using Karen Phytoplankton, which has helped me find more energy in the afternoons and beat that crash. You can find Karen Phytoplankton products at Costco locations or online at the Karen Without further ado, let's dive in.

Again, thanks for joining me on the show today. And as we get started, I'm curious, you've been in the entrepreneurship world, you've been developing your own business and really scaling things up and what led you into that world and into the business for you in the first place. Hmm,

Phabien Doiron 2:52

what led me in business? Well, I'm just going to answer that simply and say, my dad and my family because most of my family actually uncle's my father have been business owners for the majority of their lives. And I was kind of guided in some ways into business in 2012, which led me down the path that I am today of being an entrepreneur, learning to be more of a non entrepreneur, and not a businessman, at busyness man all the time anymore, in my busy self all the time. So yeah, that's kind of where it started. And went from there.

Stuart Murray 3:43

That's interesting. And when when you say, being more of an entrepreneur rather than a busyness, man, like what does an entrepreneur mean to you? So

Phabien Doiron 3:55

entrepreneur, for myself, usually, as a coach, I would redirect that question to you, but I won't do that today. For myself, it just means more being able to work on the business than in the business. And that's been something that's been difficult to learn along the years. And I really started diving into that mentality in early 2018. When I started doing a lot of my inner work and all that fun stuff to develop personally on a personal level and on a professional level. And being a business owner, from my perspective is more just being involved in a business or just owning a business and being more involved in the daily operations of things. So the entrepreneurs more the visionary part of myself, and the business owner is more of the in the weeds in the OP aerations I was a technician by trade, refrigeration mechanic technician. So I was really on the field boots on the ground. And I had to learn to not wear too many hats, so not be the technician and still be managing everything, the company, the employees, and also being the visionary that's trying to grow the company and strategically shape the organization that we built today. With 30 plus employees.

Stuart Murray 5:39

Wow. So what I'm hearing is, early on in your business, you were trying to be all the things all the time, and leading to this feeling of perhaps scattered, scattered mind scattered attention. Was it 10 years ago that you started your business?

Phabien Doiron 6:00

So scattered self scattered mind? Absolutely. And yeah, it was about 10 years ago. Yeah. Late 2012. So we're going on 10 years, this coming December.

Stuart Murray 6:13

Congratulations. And when you started to go in, I remember you talking to me, and you were saying you were working in sometimes 80 to 100 hours per week. What was that like?

Phabien Doiron 6:29

Hmmmm... Tiring? I think that's the simple answer. Just yeah. Remembering myself being there pretty tired all the time. And not noticing that within myself just kind of pushing through all the time, and being okay with being comfortable with that, and being used to that not really feeling myself being tired, because I wasn't, as I would say, self aware back then of my tiredness, physical, feeling feelings or things that were happening on a physical level, I guess.

Stuart Murray 7:17

And then you said you started to lean into this healing journey back in 2018? Was there things that started to shift for you like what brought you to decide that you wanted to lean into a healing journey?

Phabien Doiron 7:31

So what made me decide that I wanted to move into a healing journey or find a new path? For myself? That's a good question. I'm probably a long answer to if I really dive into it. But the simple answer would be that I, like a lot of business owners, like a lot of entrepreneurs, I had a lot of external issues within my business. And that can be anything from employees that are sometimes difficult to deal with, or situations with employees, jobs, customers, processes that we had that we were building, as the company expanded, and all that fun stuff. So I went and found myself a business coach, and started doing work on a business level. Okay, let's look at the finances. Let's look at what the employees are, what the org charts are, what that looks like. And then we started doing work around me and myself, and then I soon started to realize that I had a lot of personal work that I had to do. Because my personal behaviors, my personal beliefs, the way I deal with my frustrations, all those little things make the most difference and the daily operations and how things work and not saying that external employees and external things don't matter. But my inner work, I started noticing my inner work being the most important thing that I had to work on if I wanted to get off my roller coaster. So to say this, I really felt like I was on a roller coaster just going up and down. There were good days, and then all of a sudden you had something happened and or I was I had something that happened and it just brought me back down the hill. And we just had to go back up. So it's, yeah, it's been a journey and that start to doing my inner work, I would say was the seed to myself finding passion in becoming a healing practitioner, a personal coach myself to start helping others and which I've only really embraced probably within the last couple years. But wow, that's where it started.

Stuart Murray 9:59


Phabien Doiron 10:00

And then I think a better question for that was, or would be maybe, who am I? Who was identity? Who am I now, kind of thing? Because I know, I've always been someone that was very involved in the world. And so Fabia the business owner was very involved all the time in the world. And then I started finding myself on more of a spiritual level that he started learning that I'm spirit, and on a spiritual level, that I didn't need to do as many things that I could do things in a different way. With the work I've been doing on a personal and spiritual level, it brought me to where I am today where I'm able to not have as high expectations on myself or not put as much on my plate and things like that.

Stuart Murray 11:05

That's awesome. Man. I think it's really interesting that some business coaching, where you are focused on this externalized very, you know, what do I have to do in the business? What tweaks what changes, you know, what management practices need to change, and ultimately, how that pivoted and started to shift? Okay, well, what do I need to change in myself? And what shifts need to take place in my own, how I'm showing up for myself and with my employees, that will lead to some high impact changes. And I'm wondering what kind of changes that you noticed as you started to do that inner work. And as you started to lean in, back in 2018? What were some of the initial changes that you started to observe? When you started to lean in and do that that deeper personal work, what happened in your business?

Phabien Doiron 11:56

Changes I started seeing where, for me, for myself, was me not being on a roller coaster as much. So being able to well, one, manage my emotions, manage my frustrations. So I was able to react differently to the external circumstances, so that on its own created, obviously a better culture, better group dynamics, better relationships with employees, or customers, for matter of fact. So I've seen more stability along the years, as I've done that work. And as I've helped others within the organization, start doing that work themselves a little bit as well. I've seen drastic improvements in I would just say, culture, people being at ease a lot more, I've seen even drastic mental health improvements with a lot of our employees on certain levels. And I would say there's, we all know there's always work to be done, there's still a lot of work to be done in our organization. But I have seen a lot of great change is created by me doing my own inner work.

Stuart Murray 13:29

It's always interesting how we want to affect change in the outside world and think it's a matter of exerting a force or putting on conditions on a certain thing to affect that change. But, you know, the more I lean into that in our work as well, I've really noticed that a lot of the times it's not requiring a force or a mandate or any coercing anybody to do any certain thing. But the more that we shift into that deeper understanding ourselves and the more that we can embody, you know, as cliche as it is, it's, it's, it's true, embody that change that we want to see. It's amazing how the culture and organizations around us can really start to shift.

Phabien Doiron 14:14

Absolutely. When I embody the change, and I lead by example, the culture shifts. Yeah, I couldn't couldn't agree more.

Stuart Murray 14:25

And I, you cut something else that you spoke straight to my heart and, like, one of the biggest challenges that I face is, you mentioned about being very involved and always, you know, doing and, you know, what, where I where my mind goes there and what I do to a fault is tie a lot of my self worth to my productivity, and how much I can provide and measuring these things to these external expectations. And I've been used to being a giver, that provider that Doer who, you know, on one side can accomplish a lot of these things. And somebody might look at that and be like, wow, you know, you've got all of these accomplishments and all these things, he must be so proud. And then inside, it's like, well, you know what, I actually feel quite empty. And I don't feel this deep sense of peace within. And so, you know, that triggered some of those personal reflections in me. And you mentioned that you started to realize you didn't need to do so much. And that you could have less expectations on yourself. Would you be interested in sharing what that felt like for you, as you started to lessen the expectations on yourself and, and how you started to be able to let go of needing to do so much?

Phabien Doiron 15:50

Well, that's still an ongoing progress. That's still something I would say I am working on. It how it felt like when I first started, I know I felt resistant to being able to do that in many different ways. And I would say it felt very hard to do so because I, for my experiences, I always felt like, if I don't do this, then it's going to cause issues. And then all the fears come up the fears of all sorts of stuff, shit hitting the fan, sorry for my language, and they'd be employees not being happy, or customers being disgruntled, or financially being in a financial situation where I'm in a cash crunch or not able to pay bills. So all these fears are what led me I feel to keep doing in the waterways, or just wanting to see change on the exterior and feeling that if I didn't do all the time that those change weren't gonna manifest. So I have learned along the years to have more faith and trust that other people around me can achieve and do things that I was doing for one as good if not better, if I gave him the right support, and to be able to trust people to do different things. And I've learned to work through a lot of those fears that I was talking about, to let go of those fears, and really figure out where they came from. Because a lot of time, those a lot of times those fears, what I found out who came from past experiences, sometimes childhood experiences that I've went through traumatic experiences that actually I went through. So a lot of those behaviors, and subconscious fears, actually didn't even have anything to do with the current situations and work. So not saying that there weren't legitimate fears, sometimes in some extent, but they really came from a different place, deeper within myself. So as I started doing that work, I've really come to, like, go a lot of those fears and embrace the trust and feelings of fate that things can go well, and are going well. I've embraced just being even grateful sometimes for the things that I already had, which I didn't see and things like that, to be in a better space on an emotional level mental level, that I know I was at that point in time. So I know that was a long elaboration on that question. But yeah, that's, that hopefully answers your question of how did that feel, when I first started to do this type of work to not do as much which I've been questioning

Stuart Murray 19:19

here? I like that. And, you know, I mean, podcasts are all about the long elaboration. So no need to apologize for any of that. This we're here to dive in deep and, and to go into these things, because I know that you and I are not alone, in the fact that we live in a culture that tells us we're not enough, you know, and so whether that came at some thing where it was a childhood moment, whether it was a traumatic event, at some point in our lives are a whole series of those, from parents, from cultures, from teachers, from friends, from whatever that reinforced that we are not in off, I think so many people listening would be able to recognize that, wow, the patterning that they have or that we have, or that I have, that I do to cover up a feeling of not being enough and to seek externalized opportunities to prove that I am enough. And, you know, like I wrote down in my, my journal the other day, I said that I don't have to be anything, any one to be enough. And I'm really working hard on on dropping that out of my head and into my heart and making that a realization. And, you know, as you said, that's an ongoing process, because there's so much trauma, and deconditioning. And in part of moving through that ability to lessen the expectations on oneself and to soften into not needing to do so much. It requires us revisiting a lot of old wounds. That all that little child in us that didn't feel like they were not, and to be able to hold them and to see them. Man, that's a lifetime journey.

Phabien Doiron 21:19

Absolutely, yeah. If I don't embrace my inner child, and work through those feelings of not being enough. I don't learn that I don't need to do or be everything to everyone. Hmm, absolutely.

Stuart Murray 21:40

Yeah. And so as you you know, you kind of touched on this in terms of revisiting certain traumas. But are were there any tools and any, you know, any high impact practices, perhaps that have helped you start to lessen the expectations on yourself start to be able to soften, soften into not needing to do so much.

Phabien Doiron 22:02

Hmm. Oh, yeah, definitely accumulated a bunch of tools along the years. And to simplify the description, or the what those tools are, I would say it's energy psychology. So any tools within that realm have deeply helped me in doing the work that I've done on a personal level. And it first started with a wonderful friend, which I still speak with, who was a business coach, who had a feta healing practice. And I started learning about Theta Healing, and what it was, and it helped me enormously in, as I said earlier, letting go of a lot of those fears, changing some of my beliefs, limiting beliefs that I held at a subconscious level. So not only consciously but subconsciously, and learning how to access my subconscious how to speak with my subconscious how to find the answers within myself. For all those feelings that self worth that you talk about, am I enough or not feeling enough finding those answers within myself why I felt that way, and then reprogramming myself changing those beliefs because I didn't they it is a belief if I believe I'm not enough. Where does that belief come from? Where what experience they have experienced, that created that belief, and really doing that type of work. So today, Theta Healing has been a phenomenal tool. I'm now actually certified in five different levels as a practitioner, and I help others with it. And then along the road through my healing journey, or my journey journey of letting go, whichever we want to call it, I feel they're kind of two of the same. I've found a few other tools one of them being Reiki and emotional fitness. So emotional fitness is a nother modality, which offers tool for better emotional fitness, better tools to listen deeper within oneself, better tools to listen period, at a deeper level, and the tools to find our inner wisdom so it tools to find my inner wisdom and then non advice giving away. So if I'm helping someone else to be able to listen and help them find her own tools for that inner wisdom, to heal, to let go to grow to reprogram themselves, in a non advice giving way If I'm giving you advice, it might not be exactly what you need for your own experience in situation, I might be able to relate with you. But is it really is my advice, the same advice you need, right? At the end of the day. So, intuitively, you're there are different ways where I know I can channel what's going on with you a little bit. But when it comes out as advice given, that's a tricky thing to play with, I would say.

Stuart Murray 25:38

Great, man, it's, you know, we're always projecting our own ideas of the world and our own idea of rightness, and wrongness out, you know, and all we're ever able to do is do that from our own delusional perspectives. And so, you know, I can just shut all over somebody else, even if it's of the most genuine intention, and maybe if it could be helpful, but you know, and even if it is helpful, unsolicited advice that doesn't come from that inner wisdom isn't going to lead to that longest lasting, most empowered change. I agree with you so deeply on that.

Phabien Doiron 26:16

And I know, it's something that took me quite a while to learn. So I'm really happy. I've learned that now on yours. But how many of us have seen ourselves have an advice monster at some point in time? Everything, right.

Stuart Murray 26:31

Yeah, man. And I think that, you know, I think that comes from a few different ways. Like, there's that genuine intention to want to help which, you know, this part of the advice monster, but I think part of that deeper advice monster is like, perhaps our inability to sit individually and collectively with with suffering and with trauma, like, we see wounds that come up, and it triggers something inside of us. And, and so in order to hold space for somebody, in a full sense, like, it requires deep empathy and compassion, because they need to be seen, and they need to be heard. And, and so we need to do that, in a way where we don't co regulate, but we can, you know, inter be with one another, where we can allow them the space to feel what they need to recognize that part in us that is, is hurt as well, without feeding into that man, like, that's, that's such a deep struggle for me on my listening journey, to not want to give advice or to not want to try and fix somebody's pain, but to acknowledge that there's beauty in that pain, that that suffering, and that trauma, and everything that they need to move through will lead to some massive breakthroughs, and to them being a better human being. And the best thing that I could do is to hold space for that, for them to know, as they move through that intense vulnerability that they are now and that they are loved. And reconnect them to that space so that they can return to be in touch with their inner Damon, that inner whisper that already knows everything I've said already has all the answers.

Phabien Doiron 28:09

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. If I'm to be comfortable, to sit with my trauma or demons. The I couldn't agree more. I absolutely need that compassion, that safety, that safe setting. If I don't have that it's gonna hurt. And I'm not going to want to open up. So yeah, I can say that I can relate with that with some of my own experiences. So I couldn't agree more with that statement. Yeah.

Stuart Murray 28:38

Yeah, man. And I think that's part of what has led me to change that in myself. Like, I've been around a few, like really wonderful mystical healers. And you know, a lot of them probably wouldn't even call themselves, healers, but the way that they were able to just hold space without needing to fix me or correct me, and how deeply hurt I felt in those moments with it's like, they didn't need to give me any advice. They just, like needed to remind me, just by being and seeing me in my totality that I am enough, was like the shift that I needed. And it was, it's those experiences, I think, for me that have doubled down on, on my intention and desire to, to not allow that advice monster to take over even when I can feel it. Like it's appetite boiling up inside of me and I'm sitting with somebody else's pain, you know, it's like, just just validate, just hold space, just listen.

Phabien Doiron 29:39

And that's probably the most important thing if we actually want to help others, so absolutely.

Stuart Murray 29:44

Totally, man. I'd like to bring it back to when we were last talking. You had mentioned that you actually kind of hit a burnout in 2020, which, you know, your healing journey, so to speak. I went a lot deeper in 2018. And I think it's important to highlight that, you know, as we dive into our healing journeys, we're always going to, there's going to be moments where we fall back, there's going to be moments where we take a step backwards, or as we dive in deeper, there's going to be a new level, and it might feel like a step backwards, but it might lead to a deeper crack because we're more aware, right. And so as we go into our healing journey, there's going to be layers and levels of intensity and levels of, of unpacking. And so, you know, in 2018, you dive into your healing journey. Through that business coaching, you decide to start to change things and things are shifting in your business. people's attitudes at work are changing, the culture of work is changing, your reactivity is shifting. But in 2020, still, you hit a deep burnout. Could you share more about that?

Phabien Doiron 30:59

Yeah, I love your questions. Those are great questions. And great, a lot of great points you made there. And there's definitely I would say, yes. Through healing, there's always a point where yeah, we kind of go back on that roller coaster, or through those peaks and valleys, like it goes really good. And then all of a sudden, okay, something else comes up. And I know I can gladly, and gratefully say that I might finally at a spot in my life where I found a balance with that, where I can say that my roller coaster is pretty level where I'm able to kind of just coast go with the waves go with the flow go with the wind a lot better. I'm not trying to go faster than the wind anymore. That was one issue. I've always wanted to kind of get to those results faster than I needed to I'm a very results oriented person. So I was always rushed to get to things so that on its own kind of created my own peaks and valleys. And yes, I was on a an entrepreneurial burnout in 2020, early 2020, going into COVID and even pre COVID, like I had a lot, I had a huge cash crunch. So financially, things were tight. I just had expanded the company, tripled the size of the company, within about a year without doing a proper strategic and business plan and kind of just went all out. And that was a huge lesson for me as a business owner is when I can share with others. So they don't experience the same war stories that I can share. And yeah, so 2020 was rough. As I was experiencing those challenges as a business owner, I was also healing from 10 years of trauma. So my background that I started healing from in 2018 is a little interesting. What I call it today is a form of enlightenment on a spiritual level that I went through when I was 18 years old, which brought me to break down psychologically so on I was on a huge psychological breakdown, and ended up attempting suicide when I was 18. So that led me for the next 10 years to, as you said, at the beginning of this call, to work 80 to 100 hours a week to create the business the success that I have today being a workaholic for the next 10 years. So 2018 I started diving into that and started healing from a lot of the triggers the emotional triggers I still had that I was experiencing on a daily basis. I could Yeah, I had basically daily triggers, sometimes two, three triggers a day from that trauma. So you can call it that PTSD or survivor's guilt. And those invisible wounds, those memories within my subconscious still held a lot of unresolved emotions that I had pushed down. So I had 10 years worth of memories, emotions, plus that experience in 2018 Plus my childhood stuff that I have never looked at childhood experiences from bullying, to ran childhood sexual trauma, and a few other things that I had never looked at. And I started doing that work. So when I started doing that work, and I started seeing progress. And that I started seeing myself feeling better. A year down the road 2018, I saw immense changes in my behavior, how I was able to deal with my emotions, my energy, how that roller coaster was slowing down. So at that point, I wanted to basically tackle hell with a squirt gun. And that's kind of what I did. I was doing weekly, sometimes bi weekly sessions for personal and professional growth, a little bit of both. And a lot of days, I was on the table crying, while the tears came out through that. So now I laugh, I laugh at it. But it wasn't easy. It was definitely a lot of vulnerability that I had to express at that point in time to go through those things. And what happened in 2020, the best way I can explain it as I was doing so much work on myself for inner work. And at the same time expanding a company trying to find pleasure, find peace externally. find happiness externally. And that drove me to my burnout in 2020. So I wasn't leaving enough space for myself to actually integrate my healings, which is probably one of the things I can't emphasize more on for anybody going through trauma. That one needs to make sure he takes his time to actually integrate each healing. And if I don't do that, sometimes it can drive someone to a burnout or another chaotic situation. So depending on what that looks like, so that integration time is very important. And something that I know, I've learned for myself that now if I do any sorts of healing, I need to make sure that okay, I give myself the space to reflect, contemplate, stay grounded for a while and not necessarily dig or explore within myself within my subconscious within experiences within my trauma too much all the time, which was what I was doing for quite a while. So that's kind of the, the gist of my burnout and 2020, which led me to, from there, really evaluate where I was not only on a personal level, on a personal level, I was doing a lot of great work. And some of that experience in 2020. And a few other things actually brought me to the point where I am today where I can say I have very minimal emotional triggers, where I could almost even say zero, I still have some triggers, sometimes obviously, around certain situations, but to say I, I probably went from three, four triggers a day around my trauma to maybe three, four months, if that. So that whole process really helped me like go and heal enormously. Where I can say today, I'm doing very well. And I'm in the best place I've ever been in my life. So that experience in 2020 helped me in some ways that burnout helped me to Okay, sit back, take a break, reevaluate. Personally, what I want to do, and that's really when I started thinking, Okay, I need I'm spiritually on a spiritual level, my soul wants a different path. I don't want to do this. Seven days a week, 80 hours a week gig anymore. What am I doing? I'm not spending time with my family. I'm not spending time with my wife. I'm not spending time with my friends. I'm basically working all the time. Even though I'm spending time with family, friends and loved ones on there physically, but I'm not there mentally anymore. I'm just tired all the time and not actually participating or being there. In Yeah, mentally, I guess. So it really helped me start seeing that. So it gave me light it started shining light on a lot of those things. And I started to realize that okay, I can't wear all the hats within my organization anymore. I can't do the estimating, scheduling, managing employees. Still being a technician on jobs once in a while going to do jobs, and working on growing the company all at the same time. I can't do this anymore. There's a great book on it actually called the E Myth. And there's a few other good books I read all along the years. But I can't be the technician, the manager and the entrepreneur all at the same time. So that's a big lesson that I started learning on my burnout started creating a management team. And I started delegating a lot more than I was at that point in time. So it's not that I didn't know how to delegate, I knew how to delegate very well. But I wasn't allowing myself to delegate those higher priorities or to hire someone else or to make those bigger moves. So that burnout forced me to do it indirectly, or directly, in in a way, and it's for the best, best thing I did for myself. So now I'm able to say, Okay, I have a management team, we have a lot of our team members that are doing things that I was doing before, and I've been able to step away significantly, and work on more of the visionary, and the growth side of the organization, while stepping into a new path for myself doing business and personal coaching, as well as intuitive healing with my data healing practice. So that Pat, I'm still working on a little bit, but I have a couple clients that I'm working with business coaching, couple personal clients with personal stuff. And these tools, and other thing I will mention, have also helped me enormously as I'm the main one in the HR role within my organization. So I do personal coaching, professional development plans for new employees that are open to it. And any employees that need support, on a personal level I have myself, or actually one of my consultants that I work with, to help them and support them with any personal issues or work. Wow. So that's something I've been implementing been able to implement within my company with my own journey of healing, which I know is of great value for a lot of employees, we have a few employees that take advantage of it. And being able to give that support to employees has been one of the things that I've seen, I would say the most improvement in productivity for the employees with so given them that support that, okay, I know how to manage my own mental health, my emotions, doing projects, I'm not always overwhelmed. Right. So we've given them tools to be able to help them with that has increased their productivity more than any training or personal productivity training, that I could have given them. Not saying that personal productivity training is not good. But for my experience, my personal mental health, emotional health, and even spiritual health, which from my perspective, I feel is one of the most important ones has been the thing that helped me become the most productive would in my work. So being able to give those tools to employees has helped the organization has helped them become better people, they're better versions of themselves. And, yeah, that's kind of my answer to that short question you asked. And hopefully that answered your question, again, of yeah, that entrepreneurial burnout. 2020. What was that, like? That's kind of the gist of it, and where I am today.

Stuart Murray 43:56

Those are some massive changes. And obviously, that was a needed a needed shift. And thanks for sharing, you know, some of those more vulnerable aspects about what you've been going through. And obviously, again, you're not, you're not alone. And sometimes I can't help but wonder, have you heard that, like, part of our obsession with productivity is, is perhaps a way to just keep the hamster wheel going. You know, it's like we're existing in a very sick society that has not so stop for, you know, perhaps for millennials with this with his development of wonderful technologies that we can have to serve, but, you know, reflecting on the purpose, reflecting on the why and what I really got out of a lot of what you've been doing and shifting that culture in your businesses, shifting away from productivity and switching to purpose and to personal health and to a place that you know, if though if there is alignment and purpose, and if we are health The well then, you know, productivity becomes a byproduct, not something that we're, you know, aimlessly striving for. It's like, oh, well, we just want to be more efficient, more efficient, more efficient. It's like, well, do I even know what I want? Do I even know why I want it? And how can I be more effective, not efficient, but effective at doing these things. And maybe that doesn't take 80 to 100 hours on the hamster wheel, maybe that takes learning to trust other human beings, with paths that I didn't allow myself to trust and create a culture where I can lean on others in a way that I haven't in the past. And it sounds to me, you know, like, for myself, I have a hard time with some of the I can delegate. But when it comes to deeper issues, especially something, you know, a baby that you've created, and with your business. Well, I mean, that that becomes really deep, right? There's a lot of work and personal ties to that. And so to be able to lean into, to trust others on some of these deeper issues that you've been used to taking on yourself is a massive shift.

Yep, absolutely. And I still struggle with that once in a while as well. So there's still stuff that I'm working on, let's say,

Yeah, yeah, me too. Man. That's, that's a, that's a big one for me, for sure, that that trust at a deeper level, especially when you're so used to being able to just do that yourself. But, you know, I think through experience is always a great way to learn more, because as you continue to do that, I'm sure you've, you know, lightened the stress on your load, your business is probably thriving, you know, there's things that are actually start to reinforce the fact that, oh, if I do trust people, all of this starts to change. And I think we live in a culture where we're like, Well, how are you going to change people's behavior? Well, you need to mandate it. You need to like, you need to coerce certain people to do certain things, you know, oh, well, if we have no drug laws, everybody's going to be high all the time. Oh, you know, if we have no speed limits, everybody's going to be doing whatever they want. If you have, oh, well, we can't charge for donation because nobody's going to pay anything. Right. And so like, we live in a culture that underpins it, it's like what it screams is we have a lack of trust in each other. You know, but what I've seen is like go to Portugal, they've decriminalized drugs. And there's less drug abuse there than there isn't anywhere in Europe. And they used to have some of the highest drug abuse rates. And so all of a sudden, they switch from a model of punishment to a model of trust and support and health care. And then all of a sudden, that changes, you go to the Autobahn in Germany, and there's less accidents on that highway that has no speed limits. Right? Well, why is that? Because people are genuinely doing the best they can with what they have. And if we start there, and provide them as you're doing in your business, man, I think it's beautiful, provide them with the tools and the skills that they need to be able to step into that higher version of themselves. Then all of a sudden, they start to become that, you know, if we see somebody as being trustworthy, they become trustworthy.

Phabien Doiron 48:17

Absolutely. Trust is a big one. But if I can't trust myself, can I trust others?

Stuart Murray 48:23

Hmm. That's very interesting. Yeah, totally. Right, and said, and, you know, that's it, right? We see life as we are not as it is. And so we're walking around with this projection of how we see the world to be, but really, all it is, is an interpretation and a, you know, and perhaps even an unconscious evaluation of what our internal world is looking like.

Phabien Doiron 48:46

Hmm, yeah, if my internal world and what that looks like, is not in check. I might be projecting that on everyone else. So if I don't have control of myself, or I don't trust myself, or I feel that everything's out of control. Hmm, I'm going to want to control everything. I'm not going to trust anyone.

Stuart Murray 49:10

Right, you know, and that's the that's the world that we'll see. You know, that's a world that we'll create. And it's not the world that I want to live in and through your actions. It's very clear that that's not the case for you.

Phabien Doiron 49:21

No, me either. That purpose you're talking about is definitely heading me in there, right there the same direction that you're in. So I fully agree. And I think we can have a lot of longer conversations on Yes, society. How is society been doing things in a lot of places in the world? And how does that need to shift to have a more healthy, joyful, positive wellbeing for the mass majority of people living in that society, and communities, there's yeah, there's a lot of work to be done, I think around that for, for a lot of places. And I guess one step at a time, the way to do it, and if people can implement, obviously things as I've been working on implementing that I know other people, other business owners who are implementing some of them, I know, if business cultures can start shifting in this light, then we can definitely have a lot of impact. So I believe as an entrepreneur, and as any business owner, it's our responsibility to start making these shifts. I know I have a very interesting relationship with my dad. He's very old school. I'm very new school. And this way of thinking that we're talking about, and my dad's a very kind man, very smart businessman in a lot of ways, but he's realizing more along the years that okay, yeah, Fabia has a point, yeah, I might need to start changing these ways of doing things so we can do things better or easier. And new generations of employees aren't accepting this anymore. Okay. So what do I need to do in my old school ways, to start changing the way I do things so that things go well within the organization. So those generational changes are very tricky to maneuver and work with. So I know me, my dad don't argue as much anymore. Very rarely, I can say we have a really good relationship. But I've seen many times where we were in disagreements where we had to come to terms with each other's opinions or whatnot. And one of us had to learn to sit back and be patient. So there's always one that has to learn to do that once in a while. And I know we've kind of took took our turn, depending on what it is. So yeah, those generational generational behaviors, beliefs, and patterns that we're implementing in our businesses in our societies are very important. And as an entrepreneur, I'm responsible to make progressive changes in the way we're talking about. So I can, at the end of the day, rely on our politicians and leaders to do those changes for us. I don't believe we can. And that's a whole nother topic. We're not going to discuss politics here today, I think, or leadership, because I feel like I know if there's there's a lot of good leaders, there are some good politicians. But I think leadership in that area definitely needs a lot of work, from my perspective on many different levels. So leadership as a leader, what am I doing to create co create this new reality? Right? So if every entrepreneur can start thinking that way, as an entrepreneur, what am I doing to start co creating a new reality where employees can have better mental, emotional, spiritual, and physical health. And if I'm only in it for the money, or the productivity, or the efficiency, and I'm trying to control everything, or put procedures and things in place, or manipulate people in doing things, we're never going to have that reality. So it's crucial for entrepreneurs to start thinking this way, I believe, to start having these shifts in society that you and I are talking about here today. So I believe I am taking the right steps, I still have a lot to learn. There's still always some work to be done. And my organization is far from being perfect, but I believe I'm heading in the right direction. So there's a lot to think about when it comes at being an entrepreneur. So living with purpose as an entrepreneur is more important, important than living for productivity, we could say or just making money.

Stuart Murray 54:46

Yeah, that's definitely part of the shift that we need to move into to find to find and recreate meaning in what it is that we do, and to sit and wonder why we do things and You know, are we being of contribution Are we being of service, through whatever it is, you know, of course, we need money, we need to put food on our plate we need to provide we want to enjoy life. And you know, we've created a culture where money is a part of doing that. But if that becomes the the means, and the end, well, then we've gone way, way off the rails, because then we've commodified everything. relationships become transactional. And our time just has $1 sign attached to it. And that's not the that's not the more beautiful world that I want to live in.

Phabien Doiron 55:39

Neither do I, I couldn't agree more with that. And that's, like, that's a tricky one to maneuver through sometimes. And that's exactly how I felt lately, like you said, that most relationships are become transactional. It's like, where do you put that line where, like, even as a personal coach, sometimes I know I do work, or I see people that are more vulnerable or not able to afford certain things, or even friends sometimes and family that needs support. And on a business sense, I don't see anything wrong and charging for services for personal coaching, for example. But on the other side of me says, Well, I can afford it like I'm, I'm well off, and I do do some volunteer once in a while or help them one without it being transactional. And that feels good. And I don't believe that all transactions need to be transactional. But there's a balance there. So it's, it's sometimes hard to find that balance and not get caught in the, I'm doing everything for everyone for free. Because I feel I can't charge for my services, because it's a friend, and only doing it maybe occasionally or giving them a little bit of a support for a few sessions or a couple hours. And then seeing where it goes from there. So it's yeah, all relationships being transactional is something that I also see as being able to improve, so that it's not that way, in some sense. So I found that comment, interesting. It's something that I've been thinking a lot lately and how to find that balance. I'm charging, I know, high enough fee for business coaching and consulting, as I am for personal coaching as well, I could say, but not everybody is able to afford that. And we're in a place right now, especially post COVID, where a lot of people can't afford to live anymore, we have a lot of homeless on the road, that number is just going to keep increasing. If things don't change, for the better. We don't see support for those people with the inflation that we see. So not everybody is able to afford support. Personally, especially. I know, I had conversations with people lately, and I had a few people break down lately. And it's like, what do I do? I can't afford groceries anymore? Or what do I do? I have two kids. The data is not there, or what do I do? I'm disabled and have this condition and I barely make it as is and now everything's more expensive. I can't afford my house or home. So yeah, there's a war I lost my job. What do I do? So there's a lot of I think things to address in that light in that sense. And if we keep all of our relationships transactional, and everybody just wants to get money out of it, then where are we going? Without support from a federal level? Where are we going? If that supports not there because then we can go into a whole other conversation around how I know statistically statistics show that our federal budgets for example, only give 0.5% towards mental health 0.5% If you calculate it is what is put towards mental health from federal budgets right now. And I would say 0% is put towards emotional health and 0% is put towards spiritual health. So how can we To help those less fortunate not lose their livelihood, their lives their house and be on the street without food and surf. And give them the support they need. When budgets aren't even there from our leaders to do so, which I know there has been tiny improvements, tiny, in some support giving through COVID. But still lots of work to be done. I know, I was speaking with medical professionals and professionals in the mental health industry lately, on multiple calls. And it's a recurring subject, we have zero for mental health systems in place. And that's not even talking about emotional health, or spiritual health. So at the end of the day, there's a circle of health, that the indigenous actually believe in the medicine wheel. And we have four aspects of health, my mental health, my emotional health, my spiritual health, my physical health, if those four earn in check, or if I only have two of those, that I'm good with my mental and physical, let's say, and I'm sitting on a chair, with only two legs, what's going to happen? I'm going to tip over at some point. So if our society only has not even one of those checks, is our society you're going to just tip over? I would believe so.

Stuart Murray 1:01:41

I think we've been tipped over for a while.

Phabien Doiron 1:01:43

Have we? Have we been tipped over for a while? Maybe? Yeah, maybe we have.

Stuart Murray 1:01:49

It's, it certainly seems that like, you know, and you keep referencing leaders and I, a politician, to me isn't a leader, a leader is somebody who helps bring out the best in people and processes. And, you know, if I'm sitting around waiting for those, those statistics you shared are sad. They're really sad. And it you know, when your military budget is exceedingly large, and your your healthcare budgets in those ways are particularly preventative health care, are so dismal. It speaks a lot and, and so, for me, at some point, it says, Well, okay, being a man of action, and you know, responding to what's the situation in front, I could sit here and be angry, I could sit here and, you know, tear down and wait for a new policy or bill to be passed that will put 2% into the mental health budget and 2% into the or, I can continue to dive into those questions about what does you know, how do I move my relationships from being transactional, to being authentic, to be rooted in, in what is real and what is true? And maybe there isn't a dogmatic answer to that. And maybe I need to evaluate that with with what's alive in me. And maybe somebody does need free health, and somebody can pay for it. And maybe there's times where I need to just stop what I'm doing and go help my neighbor because they need food. Right? And how do we shift away from a culture of scarcity because, you know, we can blame our federal and our provincial, municipal governments, but we, they've inherited a story, just like we have, that we live on a planet that is scarce, that is finite for resources, and that more for you means less for me. And that, that story that underpins the policies that underpins our livelihood, that in underpins the way that we do business. All of that is this really deep piece at the root that we need to, we need to kiss the root all the way up, and start to heal these things. And remember that we live on a planet that there isn't enough for you, and there's enough for me, and we've got soil here that we can take care of and nourish and create abundant food. And we can show up for each other and provide support so that we can take care of those four aspects of health. And so that we can make sure that people aren't sleeping without a roof over their heads. It's not, it's not the world I want to live in. And I It pains me to see people walk by people on the streets as if they're a nuisance, and that we're not all a part of this product in this world. And it's reflecting these deep issues that we're needing to sit within our own internal world. And so for me, you know, my work leans into a lot of the work that you're doing, how do I go inside and ill? What I can't stand to see in this outer world because it's not enough for me to wait for a policy to come in and shift something like that, so that I can be more happy or wait for some external circumstance to change. Because, you know, it's my duty as, as I'm occupying human form to leave this place more beautiful than I found it.

Phabien Doiron 1:05:20

Absolutely. That's why we're going to create the day, here's something about a men's retreat, that we're going to create something.

Stuart Murray 1:05:28

That's right, you know, and so surrounding ourselves with the people who are ready to lead that change, and from from you and I sitting down in a conversation at a cafe to helping to round up dozens of men who are ready and open to change. Right. And so here we are, you know, us sitting in empathizing with one another about how beautiful it is to have these conversations to hold this kind of space. And how do we transition that and, and really harness that momentum so that we can affect change and work on our own healing as individuals and collectively so yeah, man, we are making those moves and dive in deep.

Phabien Doiron 1:06:10

Looking forward to it.

Stuart Murray 1:06:12

Me too. Me too, brother. Is there anything else you'd like to share with the listeners as we start to wrap things up?

Phabien Doiron 1:06:21

Hmm. I could share that I feel blessed and grateful that you've invited me here today to speak on some of these subjects, which are very close to my heart. And, yeah, again, thanks a lot for the invitation reaching out. And I'm looking forward to connect again sometime soon, which I know we are. And besides that, I pray that hopefully we can all go in this direction we're talking about, and I know you and I are and hopefully other people can embrace this slowly to, for us to keep moving forward with creating support for people

Stuart Murray 1:07:09

absolutely matter, big time. And lat one last question for you. What is your big vision to see humanity move forward?

Phabien Doiron 1:07:21

Hmm, my big vision to see humanity move forward? That's a big question. Actually. It's something I know I think about. Occasionally, significantly, actually, I really work on staying present and not think too much of that nowadays. But having a society that's able to live in a more positive light, and be able to live with joy and ease, while still, being able to express all levels of emotions in a healthy way, is kind of what I see. That doesn't mean that expressing anger is bad or hurt. There's a positive and healthy way to express those emotions. But I feel a lot of people haven't been able to learn that yet. So having an emotionally fit world, having a spiritually and mentally fit world, where we can co create and thrive compared to what I see a lot of people living like or living with some of those heavy emotions or frustration that are sometimes hard to live with, even to the point that some people commit suicide. I know I've heard just in the last week, two people that have been having thoughts of suicide and a lot of people have committed suicide within the last month. If you really look at the statistics and numbers so how do we change that reality? So those people that are affected in a negative way with frustrations health issues, trauma, are able to move forward heal and live in a better world that supportive and all of the aspects we shared that

Stuart Murray 1:09:51

Yes, brother.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:53

So that's kind of the big vision, big picture. I would say.

Stuart Murray 1:09:57

I love it. I'm I'm on the train with Man, and I know that personally and professionally, you're an inspiration and doing that work and you're helping to lead the way. So thank you again for taking the time and for everything that you're doing to help keep that train rolling forward.

Phabien Doiron 1:10:16

Good stuff. Thanks. Let's do the train is gonna keep moving forward

Stuart Murray 1:10:26

I hope you enjoyed this episode with Phabien Doiron

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