What does having an entrepreneurial mindset mean to you? How do you bring creativity into your days?
In this episode, Sally Ng and I dive into personal development and entrepreneurial mindset. Sally shares some amazing tips for anyone looking to level up their impact. A few key topics include:
How to create a board of mentors, who can help you navigate the challenging decisions and scary unknowns
How we can build trust in relationships and shift from surficial transaction to a deeper relational way of connecting with one another
Why it’s important we own our mistakes and celebrate our differences
Sally shared some great advice that I will be putting into my own practice. I hope it serves you, too!
Connect with Sally Ng
Website | http://www.thetripleeffect.com
Facebook | https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallycng/
Instagram | @sallycng
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Sally shared some great advice that I will be putting into my own practice. I hope it serves you too.
Stu Murray: Thanks so much, Sally, for taking the time to come on. I really appreciate, making the space for being able to have this conversation, and I've been really interested since our last chat about some of the things you've been [00:01:00] doing.
I went on through your Facebook and checked out the website, and I really like how you're helping tap into that, startup space and helping different companies from all different aspects to move things forward, to simplify the processes of different things. And as we dive into this, I'm sure we'll go all over the place, but as we get in, I'm curious, like what is it exactly that you're doing with the triple.
Sally Ng: Yeah. So it's funny cuz I feel like I started the triple effect by accident a couple years ago. So it would've been like six, seven years ago where I had left a job really building this entrepreneurship, accelerator and center and I was pretty burned out. And people just after I left that, people just started asking me, being like, Can you help us with this program and we'll pay you for it?
I'm like, You'll pay me to do this and it's kind of for fun. Yeah, sure. . And so I sort of ended up doing that and I didn't wanna call it oh, Sally and [00:02:00] consulting by any means. So I was thinking about the name and I thought about triple bottom line, three buckets of work that I was starting to emerge. And so one bucket initially when I started was all focused on entrepreneurial community building.
So building programs such as like indigenous business incubators or launching new centers or running programs to help early stage founders to the middle bucket was around corporate innovation. And so really helping big companies think more like a startup. So I had clients like Atlantic Lottery, a couple tech startups.
I was, that was definitely a bit of more of a blank slate for me. And then the third bucket was around technology coaching. So across all of the environments, I started to notice that founders were really bring productive with the tech that they had at their fingertips. And a lot of executives with a change of social media and everything, they were scared to ask questions or they didn't actually understand a lot of the metrics and knew how to an didn't know how to analyze a lot of the data that was given to them.
And on top of it, [00:03:00] obviously with the change of technology, my parents are like mid seventies, late sixties, like I'm sure all of us can know. A senior will say that doesn't know how to use an iPhone. Realizing how left out they are, if they don't have basic technology skills. And so I, through the Digi learn in that third bucket of tech coaching, I also launched a separate brand called Digi Learn, which was technology coaching for seniors.
And we coached 200, some seniors, average age 74, youngest was 58. Definitely tested my patients , but it was definitely the most heartwarming things
Stu Murray: Wow. That I did. That's really cool. Was that like in some in person stuff that you were doing? Or was this, like a
Sally Ng: It was all in person. Yeah. This was like well before Covid, like this would've been 20 17, 20 19 that I was doing it.
And I had four summer students at one point. We partnered with like multicultural association,[00:04:00] in Fredericton. And St. Thomas University had loan us some of the classrooms. yeah. It was, we had a whole curriculum. That's cool. And a whole onboarding process with them, which this was like, you had to be, because the mindset was, could you make, did you learn like a silver learning?
So same as you teach kids math and reading, why couldn't you have create that same franchise type model for
Stu Murray: tech coaching? Hmm. Yeah. That's brilliant. And that it's really a gap that we were seeing where so many people weren't even able to access into that space, whether that was like even some basic Google searches.
Right. So it's like really helping bring so much more accessibility to, to people who might not be able to otherwise.
Sally Ng: And it's a core skill. Like it's no, like you have to know how to do it and we sort of take it for granted, no different than math or reading. So that's the way I approached it. But it was a tricky piece for sure.
And it's like the social side of like, oh, you wanna charge for [00:05:00] this, but you don't wanna charge for this cuz you just wanna teach someone how to make their Facebook profile to see their grandkids photos and you feel guilty, but . So there's lots of tensions there of wanting to do good, but also trying to make it
Stu Murray: sustainable.
Totally. And I imagine that's hard with a business anyways, is just being, trying to figure out like, oh, if we're actually pursuing something that lights us up so often, we just wanna share that from. The bottom of our hearts and be able to help people, improve their businesses, improve their lives, improve their health, whatever that is.
And so I find it, it can actually be a challenging thing to put a value on these things that we do. And I, one thing I've used is like just coming back to remind myself that people are willing to pay for things that bring them value, and they're happy to. Right. So it's , it's engaging in these financial exchanges can be a really tricky thing to do.
Sally Ng: And if you see the value of it and you've [00:06:00] got the, I'll say the privilege just as for someone else, cuz you see it as importance. Like that's what I started to notice, would have a bit of that ripple effect cuz they, they would recognize that some seniors didn't have the means to pay for it.
And so we would be really open about, okay, this is why we're charging you this amount. Cuz it also allows us to offer some of these at a lower price for some of the other seniors that wouldn't be able to access it otherwise.
Stu Murray: Mm. And I love also, Speaking about the business at large, like how it just kind of organically came about from having left.
I take it that position that you were speaking of earlier is where you were working at Planet Hatch. Yeah. With the consulting. Yeah. Yeah. So I love that you could spun that out and saw this opportunity, which led to you creatively coming in and taking advantage of that opportunity and being able to leverage that and provide a service and provide value for, for people and turn it into a business as well.
Like that's, that's a very entrepreneurial [00:07:00] of you .
Sally Ng: It's hard when you're in that space to not, I'll say, like, see those opportunities, but it's also tricky that you realize how hard it is. So sometimes it's like hard to take the first step. But it, yeah, there was so many different learnings from that role.
Stu Murray: Yeah. What, what is it that helps? You know, that you think could help take that first step and overcome some of those barriers as a, as an entrepreneur or somebody who's wanting to be a self starter. Like what are ways that we can actually even come over those, some of those initial hurdles?
Sally Ng: Yeah, that's a good question.
I think for me, the way I look at it is like asking for help and actually like really self reflecting on these are the things I'm good at, these are the things I actually need help on. But even thirdly, what, these are the things I'm, I'm not the greatest at, but I would love to learn about it more. And then how are you actually gonna fill that gap?
Because I think like people will talk about icky guy or talk about like, this is what I meant to do. And I'm like, Yeah, but you're 20 . You haven't [00:08:00] really lived a life yet, so how do you really know what you like or don't like? Cause I know the 20 year old me versus, I'll say the 35 year old me now are two very different people.
Obviously there's core values that are consistent, but I never imagined that 15 years later, this is the type of work I would jump into. Mm-hmm. . And so, That's the part that I'm like having that deep self-reflection on, Okay, currently right now, these are my skills. This is what I don't have, this is what I wanna learn.
And then actually just chatting with people about it. Like I, I'm lucky that I had a, I'll say a board, I call them my board of advisors, of mentors and individuals that I would reach out to. Mm-hmm. , sort of just naively when I was younger, I'd be like, Oh, this person looks cool. I think I wanna get to know them.
I'll, well gather my courage to go cold, email them or walk up to them and have great conversations. And some of them I remember at Planet Hatch. I knew that I was self-aware to know that I was coming off as being a very, I'll say, [00:09:00] headstrong, driven, ambitious person. And people, it's hit or miss how people take that, especially when you're a female, especially if you're a female person of color.
And so I remember I approached this female tech CEO, who was probably, probably 55. And to me she was, she's a powerhouse. And I cold emailed her and I said her name's actually Andrea Eckes and I, we went out for coffee and I said to her, I was like, Andrea, I was like, How did you navigate it? I was like, You're the CEO of the company.
Your husband's the co-founder in this. I'm like, How do you not get called bad names of being that ambitious, driven person? And she gave me some really great advice and. Sort of allowed me, I'll say, to own that personality, but also knowing, okay, which are some of the corners that I might need to round off a little bit from time to time, depending on who I'm dealing with. That kinda was like really helpful to navigate that.
Stu Murray: That's really cool. There's a few things that came up for me there as you were speaking, try and remember to touch on them that [00:10:00] one of the first thing that you said was something that I often tell the students that I was working with in the past where it's like what we're going to do and the things that we're interested in will inevitably change.
And so a really important thing to focus on and bring awareness to is what I would say is to focus on who you want to be, not what you want to be. Because the, what we want to be will shift and change so many times based on the opportunities and the context that we find ourselves in. But those fundamental values and living in and leaning into our integrity is something that will transfer into, whatever we do. And so that, that's such a fundamental thing. And I like your advice too, on being able to ask for help. That's something that is a deep struggle. And I wonder, you know, I wonder sometimes why it's something that we all struggle with so deeply or so many of us do, is being able to ask for help.
There's a lot of vulnerability in that, but [00:11:00] it can just take us so much further than if we're just sitting there spinning our tires and kind of like wallowing in our own self defeat or our inability to overcome some of these hurdles.
Sally Ng: Yeah, definitely. And people are like, I think everyone's scared of feedback, right?
Like most people get receiving feedback, giving feedback doesn't come naturally. Mm-hmm. . And so I think that's the tricky piece. And I think people also put too much onus on one relationship, right? I don't think there's one mentor of mine that can answer all of my questions. It's why I call them my personal board of advisors.
It's like, okay, finance questions, I'll go ask those person relationship questions will be this, marketing will be that. And we all know that with our friends, if you look at them in that way or not. Cuz no one's gonna build that. I'll say that network or that board of advisors for you, you have to do it yourself. And so to me that's, and it's not about transactional relationships either. Like it's really having deeper relationships of like, it goes both ways is what I think some of my [00:12:00] best relationships have been. And really showing the gratitude that people,
Stu Murray: people helped you. Tell me more about this personal board of advisors.
I think that's just so brilliant and you're inspiring me as I'm sitting here listening. I'm like, I need to put this together. Is this something that like you just kind of had and you internally knew that you'd have these references? Did you meet with them as a group? Like tell me more about the whole concept and how you kind of navigated and flowed through that.
Sally Ng: Yeah. I think it more so happened by accident, right? I'm super observant, so I'd always sort of watch people and I don't know, I went to Mount a loved, ended up loving psychology and just like being amused by and interested in like, oh, what makes people tick? Oh, okay, organizational behavior, what lead, like leadership, like all these things and how we learn and how like childhood sometimes traumas, but also like experiences that shape who we are.
Mm-hmm. . And for me, I just felt like no one could answer my [00:13:00] questions. I love my parents, but I'm also, I'm a first generation immigrant. I was born in Malaysia, youngest of five kids. My parents live in Fredericton. They run a gas station convenience store. Like they're pretty entrepreneurial. But they're your typical immigrant family.
Yes. They're entrepreneurs. But being from a traditional Chinese family, you don't have those, you can't have, It's hard to, at least in my world, it was really hard to have those conversations. But I know my parents love me and so I was always sort of looking externally to be like, Okay, who else could be my mentor?
And originally the first mentor I ever had was at this conference actually, and it was a Women in Tech conference, and they had this rockstar team of four or five female CEOs, all varying ages. And I've said this before and all day. I always kinda makes fun of me for it too. But on this panel, they had said, Yeah, women in tech just need to ask for a mentor.
You just gotta have the courage and ask, Keep in mind I'm like 20, 21 at this point, I don't think I was working. I might have just quit my job. Can't remember the whole [00:14:00] context. Anyways, I got up and kind of had the courage of like, I really respect all of you. But me as this like little 20 year old who doesn't have a job, doesn't even know what I wanna do with my life at this point.
There's no way that I'm talking to you as the former deputy premier, the CEO of a tech company, and be like, Will you be my mentor? I don't even know what to ask or anything like that. And they didn't actually answer my question or my comment very well. I just kind of let it, I was like, okay, whatever.
But afterwards, one of the panelists, her name's Alaya Landry, so she was deputy pre to Frank McKenna. She's based out of Moncton. She is like Order of Canada Rockstar, amazing person. And she came up to me and she said, Sally, I'll be your mentor. Keep in mind, I had no sweet clue who she was at that point, other than like, I didn't Google her until after.
So I didn't realize like how. Lucky I was that she approached me on it and the first time we had a coffee, my questioned her was, How do [00:15:00] I quit a job? And she was like, That's your question. I was like, I'm 21. I just got into working for this job. I've only been it for four months and I really don't think it's a good fit, but I don't know what to do.
And she and her and I still laugh about it 15 years later, she's like, literally, This is your question. I was like, It's really what I need help on. If you can approach that mentorship or like that board of advisor's relationship of like, here's where I'm at. I think I know the path. I might not know the path. What do you think my path should be? And if you're genuinely open and willing to listen, I think you'll get a lot from that. You always have an ask to some degree, and the ask could be a very black and white, Should I do this or not?
Or sometimes it's, this is what I'm thinking. Do you think there's anything else I should be paying attention to? And so I think most people, especially if they're later on in their career, are more than happy to jump in and have those conversations. Hmm.
Stu Murray: Do you have any tips for anybody listening who [00:16:00] has perk up and like, I need to create my personal board of advisors or mentors and really start surrounding myself so that I can build whatever I'm doing on the shoulders of giants or, you know, whatever.
Like maybe they're not as big or prominent in these particular worlds, but we can turn to certain people who would be able to help us move forward in whatever way we're looking to go. Do you have any advice for people who are ready to take that step and start creating, a board of advisors?
Sally Ng: Yeah. So first one, I would say on the back of every notebook that I've ever had, I have, I call it my learning list.
I make a list of the top 10 things I wanna learn. And then it goes to the people. So I remember, I think it was um Mentor said to me years ago, it's purpose process people. the purpose is I individually wanna seek that growth. These are the 10 things. And it could be financials, it could be I wanna learn more about ocean Tech or software design.
You list those things out and then you start [00:17:00] to then think about how am I gonna learn those things. Item number one might just be a random online course item. Number two actually is more a relationship piece. And then you start weaving in the people. Cuz even on the course side, I might have found a course, but then I probably wanna reach out to two or three people that have maybe done a similar course or that course.
Then you can reach out to them and it starts to create that ripple effect. And so I call it like the top 10 list. And sometimes your list also includes like a person, but I dig a little bit deeper of like, why is that person the right person to talk to? The other thing I've done, and this is maybe before c, is I had another page in my book that is, it's different cities and I'd have three to five people under each category.
So it's Toronto, be person one, two, and three. So if I happen to be in Toronto, maybe I had a layover, I would actually intentionally reach out and have a coffee with that person. Wow. And to actually remember, cuz it takes time and effort to like to manage those relationships and [00:18:00] it's hard to remember them, thankfully now there's LinkedIn, but even then you still don't remember like where people are based and like who you really wanted to talk to.
And so I would do those to just keep those relationships alive and going.
Stu Murray: I love that. That's a really great place to kind of take stock and before you go out frantically and just scoop, anybody you think might be into this board of mentors as well. And what if somebody's scared?
Like what if somebody's worried about putting themselves out there or, or not even sure how to do that? What kind of advice or thoughts would you have around that?
Sally Ng: I get it a lot cuz I chat with my friends and they're like, Sally, I'm not you. Right? I'm not an extrovert, I'm not like that.
And I always say to them, that's fine. But we each have our own different styles. I how to approach people. I'm not saying my style is perfect for everyone. I think deeper down, if you are someone that wants to build that network, like doesn't matter if it's linked in emer or whichever. [00:19:00] You've gotta start somewhere, you've gotta do that first step of reaching out. But how you craft that email or that message, I think has to really come from a place of genuine relationship building and not strictly I need, and I want. That's probably the biggest mistake I've seen people do.
And so for example, way, way back I thought I wanted to work for a bank and like from a Chinese family, they're like, Yeah, go for a bank, work for government. Go get a normal job. And so I was doing my due diligence. I'm like, Okay, there's bdc, there's rbc, there's td, there's sco. Which ones do I go with?
And so I literally cold message people. I think it was five or six people from the banks on LinkedIn. And my message to them was, And actually out of the five, I think three or four of them all got back to me and I actually jumped on calls with them. And keep in mind I had no connections with these people whatsoever.
I literally just stalked them online. found them, and I sent them a message that said, Hi George. I noticed that you've been with TD [00:20:00] for the last 15 years and you've gone through a number of different positions at the bank. I'm a relatively new grad, or I'm going through a career transition right now and I'm considering going into the financial industry.
I love to jump on a 20 minute call with you just to hear about your experiences, um, working in the financial industry. Let me know if there's a couple times that you might be available. Here's my cell phone number, or here's a booking link, and literally three or four out of the five all got back to me.
Because if one, I'm patting them on the back, I'm not just randomly messaging you. I looked at your background with that and on top of it, I'm making a dead simple for hopefully for you to book a meeting with me. Right? I will. They want 6:00 AM in the morning. I will Bradley, jump on call 6:00 AM in the morning.
And it wasn't Zoom, it was just a phone call. So you limit the friction and the barriers with that. And that was, I did that over 10, 15 years ago and the conversation was, I realized I did not wanna work in the banking industry, . That's why I realized from those calls, but I think if you approach individuals from a place of [00:21:00] honesty, will everyone write you back?
No. Who cares if they don't? Whatever. You're not worst off, as long as you're writing it in a really nice, genuine tone, I think people are typically more than willing to help.
Stu Murray: Yeah. And we tend to almost downplay ourselves and go off, or I just want this, or I just, It's like, just keep it simple and clear and be sincere.
And like you said too , I really like that aspect is we're going to be told no as well. And that's part of the risk of putting ourselves out there, but that's not tied to our self worth. And so the biggest thing that I would pull outta that too is be sincere and be honest.
And just if we're able to stick with that integrity of it, I think that would really help knowing that, yeah, we're just putting it out there with honest integrity. And then whatever comes back, It comes back and I don't have to take that personally, but maybe there'll be some little nuggets of gold here, like you said, that can help inform or [00:22:00] get that right conversation or, or whatever that is.
Sally Ng: Yeah and you made a really good point earlier too when you talked to students and you said it's more about who you wanna be versus not what you wanna be like, if I think back to the early 20 year old, I'm like, I wanted to be a pilot . Like I went to school and did my commercial pilot's license
That was career plan A. Like I have nothing like yes, I still have my license. Yes, I still volunteer with the cadet program and I like to fly for fun. But you all have these like transferable skills that adapt and change obviously based on experiences and so on that who you are at 20, even if you make a mistake don't be a mean person.
Mm-hmm. around it, who cares, apologize. Hopefully it's not such a huge mistake that it lives with you forever, but I feel like most people aren't making like life detrimental mistakes in that way earlier in their career, or even mid-career. Especially if you're coming from a place of kindness and gratitude.
Stu Murray: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I mean, we're human. We're flawed and [00:23:00] we're fallible. So the best we can do is show up with sincerity and own the mistakes when we do make them. And that's just part of our evolution. And speaking of such, speaking of relationship, something you not, you mentioned earlier was this idea of shifting from cra a way of transactional relationship to a deeper, more authentic way of relating.
And I'm curious, like how's your take on how we can move from a more transactional way, which shows up in so much of our culture, like from. In all different kinds of ways too. A way that we can move, be that in the business world, be that in our personal world and whatever way, how can we start to shift from transaction to that deeper way of relating with each other?
Sally Ng: Yeah, that's a tough question, Just a light one. . . One of my favorite quotes, and I don't know where I heard it from, is change happens at the speed of trust in relationships. Mm. [00:24:00] When you think of and change that could be personal, could be career, lots of different pieces. How do you actually build the trust?
Like obviously if you build the trust, the relationship sort of follow in regards to that. How are you eroding trust in those relationships? And so I think that's a piece where, I think it has to start from there first, right? It's like how do you build trust? Well, am I telling you about my background?
Am I telling you because am I trusting you? Cuz you know so and so, But how do you actually immediately build trust with those individuals that isn't just you coming out wanting something? I think is what I think of as a keyword. The other side, when I had my 30th birthday a couple years ago, it was like obviously like milestones, birthdays, you have these reflection points.
And I'm like, I have had these amazing people that have, I've been lucky enough to be surrounded by and I didn't know how to thank them cuz a lot of them were well off individuals. Buying them a box of chocolates like really means nothing. And how do you create like, fun experiences too? Cuz out of a bunch of people, some of [00:25:00] them knew me from this part of my life, some of them knew from others, but.
They didn't really merge together. And so I had this funny idea and I convinced one of my mentors, Nancy and Chris to loan me their house. And I invited the 30 people that had the most impact on my life for my 30th birthday. And I cooked them a seven course Malaysia meal. What? No way. And so I'm like, it was so much shopping.
Like I'm like, that was, I one less learned on that one is like, hire someone to help you cut onions and peel the potatoes. And so it's like how do you genuinely, And it's not about it being expensive, It's like actually genuinely thinking about how do you create a neat experience.
Cuz I've had other people are like, Oh, I'm gonna buy them an expensive meal. I'm like, they're filthy rich . They don't need buy them a meal. Mm-hmm. . Like it's, that's actually not what's gonna show them kindness and appreciation. And so that's the other side I think about it too, is like, how do you. How do you make it fun for each other?
So even if I'm in another city, a meeting with a bunch of people now [00:26:00] that c's well sort of, well, next phase of Covid, if I'm in Toronto, I'll try to bring together two or three friends from different parts of my life again. And going through that. And recently I did that actually in Toronto, a good friend of mine and this other friend, and we all bonded over life changes, I'll say like being powerhouse women or whichever, but we're all at the age of, okay, your clock is ticking.
Do you want kids? Do you not want kids? But all going through different phases of it. And we all had that common thread. And I don't live in Toronto. The two of them do. Now that I'm not there. The two of them message each other all the time. And I'm like, well, Yeah, that's great. I'm like, Oh, I wanna join
I wish I had been closer But you never know too, right? It's not. It's not just transactions, It's like how do you actually convene and connect people, I think is a bigger piece too.
Stu Murray: I love that, that whole 30 year old, bringing these 30 top influencers in your life together, I think is so cool on so [00:27:00] many different levels.
From that level of genuine appreciation to this opportunity to bring different people together with who knows what kind of sparks that those can come and like you said, just being sincere with that and sharing even the fact that you brought in your own cultural food in this as well.
Like do so many. Cool things of that. And another big thing you mentioned there was like trust instead of this wanting. And where I love that you take that is it seems like we enter so many things wanting to extract something, to be some degree of self-serving. But I don't actually hold that story to be true about humans.
Like I don't actually think we are self-serving individuals. And I think that even holding that story in our heads and in our hearts does us a disservice. And really we do want to connect and we want to tap into that deeper sense of meaning and deeper sense of belonging with one another. [00:28:00] And so it's just like bringing that to the forefront in the way we relate and bringing it into the business world, bringing it into all aspects of our world.
And I think, like you said, trust is this fundamental underpinning of that. And so I would even push you deeper now and ask how do we. Deepen our trust with another human.
Sally Ng: Yeah. I think there's like me and my 10,000 sticky notes on my wall . There's one quote, I think this might have been from BNE Brown and there's lots there, and it's vulnerability is showing up when you don't know the outcome.
Yes. And I think when I think of trust, I think the vulnerability piece is really true, right? And obviously you need to be in a place where you feel safe. You need to have the confidence to be able to show up in that way. But I think until individuals really are really open and honest with individuals and themselves, without [00:29:00] that, it's hard to build trust, right?
Like I'll come with folks if I'm working with a new team and there's lots of exercises of personality tests I can give to them, but I know that I'm not a naturally, I'll say lovey dovey person that way. Like I think I'm kind, but I'm definitely not the, like I try to intentionally try to check in, Hey, how are you feeling?
All that type of thing. But it doesn't come naturally. Like that actually takes a lot of effort and it's not, cause I don't care about individuals, it's just I'm so focused on like, Oh, what's the things that we need to get done that I sometimes forget of Hey, how's that person feeling today? Right.
Is their personal family life? Okay. And lots of us, I'm sure go through those phases. And so I think that trust piece really has to start with if we're billing trust with the other people, like, what's going on in their life, in their world that you may or may not know about and sort of expect, try to be optimistic about it cuz you don't know, right? Everyone handles stress and conflict differently is what I try to be mindful on going into those conversations. And if. [00:30:00] Do they have an issue with it or they have troubles talking about it? What I've tried to do now, like more recently, the last couple years, is I'll open up first, right? I'll share a little bit of that vulnerability of doing that. Like the other day I was chatting with, a new grad who just, hi, got hired into a company, and that's one of my clients. And the client is an indigenous organization, and this new grad's not indigenous. I'm not indigenous. The founder is, and she had expressed that she wasn't comfortable. She was like, I don't know how to navigate being, working for an indigenous company, handling marketing, but I'm not indigenous.
And I said to her, and she's like, I'm scared of messing up, is what she said. She's like, I don't know. And I get it wrong. I don't get the tone right or I spell the word wrong and all this type of thing. And so the place that the founder and I came in with was, None of us know, right? A lot of indigenous individuals are still reconnecting with their roots and mistakes happen.
We apologize, we do with it. It's like guarantee mistakes are gonna happen. So we sort of [00:31:00] set that tone in some ways with it. But then we said to her, Okay, let's make sure we work with an elder. Let's see who else we can find on the periphery to help us. I'll say back up do our research with us.
And then I gave her some examples of where I've totally embarrassed myself and I was like, Oh yeah, I got yelled by an elder one time cuz I really messed up on this and I didn't know the culture Customs in front of 80 people. Right? I gave her some very like, Yeah you think that you think your social media post was bad, try this. And it wasn't about a competition thing, but it was like, cuz I obviously I have more years of experience than her, but. In her mind, Oh, Sally, you've never messed. I'm like, No. The number of times I'm like, Oh, a maple leaf versus a Japanese maple, who knew that the leaves looked totally different.
We would give these like funny analogies. So I think showing other people you're working with, especially if they're, I'll say more junior sometimes. How do you actually show a bit of that vulnerability of, Hey, mistakes happen, should happen. We're not perfect, right? Like you [00:32:00] said. Totally. And so I think it has to start from there.
Because you can't speak from their experience. The only thing you can speak from is yours, your own lived experience. And if you expect them to have that trust for you, you also need to trust them with your experie. Is the way I look at it. And if they're not, I guess I'm thick skinned enough, then Fine.
Okay. You don't get it. Whatever. I try, doesn't always work,
Stu Murray: Well, Right. Sometimes you're gonna have to just let it be as it is. I love that you brought in Bene Brown. I think she does some very fascinating and important work around vulnerability around all of these different aspects of how we can bring courage and heart and transparency and trust into our different relationships.
And a couple concepts that she's shared that I really liked was, you know, one of those being. If they're not in the ring rumbling and ready, if they're not in the ring with you, then their advice and their criticism is not that important. And [00:33:00] so really creating those cultures in our teams and in our friendships where we can meet them where they're at, and be in the ring and be ready to rumble with them and to create that environment as a business leader, as a friend, that it's like, I see you as you are and I honor you as you are. And that's just that place that we need to be met because we want to be seen for who we are. And that's really at the root of belonging, in my opinion, is being seen for who we are. Not having to put on some mask, not having to do these things, flaws, fallibility, and all to be seen in all of that, and to be held and loved within that is such an important intention to be able to set down, because obviously we're not always going to be showing up in that space because our judgements and our insecurities are going to be projected outwards. And so we're gonna have challenges there, but to bring that intention. And the other piece too is like the, these marble jar moments that bene brown references and [00:34:00] she talks about marble jar moments where it's like a back in school where you'd have a class and if they were doing all of these things and treating each other with respect and contributing to a good environment, then when those moments were noted, they would add a marble to the jar.
And so you'd have this visual representation of creating these and when the reverse was true, you'd remove a marble from the jar. And I think that can be applied to our relationships and professional and personal relationships where. Vulnerability is going to come in increments. And I'm not going to open up and tell you my entire life story or all my deepest fears and all of these insecurities that I hold immediately because I don't know if there's a trust established there.
And so it's in little moments and then all of a sudden I'm vulnerable and I ask for something that may allows me to be seen in this really potentially uncomfortable way. And it's like, Oh, that person really responded in a loving way. They really [00:35:00] did see me here even when I was vulnerable. And that's going to lead, that's another marble in the jar.
And so I really like that as a framework for building trust and deepening into that too. Yeah,
Sally Ng: that's a really great one. And I've been burned by trusting people that I maybe shouldn't have influenced a little more vulnerable. I think we all have those moments and it's.
Yeah. It's hard to, I'll say, get up from that in a way. Mm-hmm. I'm not always the greatest at it, but I genuinely try not to hold grudges and I'm overall fairly optimistic. We're gonna meet thousands of people in our lives, Right? Some of them are gonna burn us, love it or not, like I do genuinely think, I think people mean well.
But it is tricky. And like you mentioned too, a really good point was these expectations that people have for you because I've worked in so much of the diversity, equity, inclusion, like the DI space, there's expectations of what people have for me, uh, Sally.
Right. Is it my real name? No, it's not. It's the name I got given so that we [00:36:00] wouldn't get made fun of in Nashua Village, New Brunswick. Right. . It's not my real name. And because I don't have an accent, people instantly think that I can't speak Mandarin versus it's my first language. And being an Asian female, they expect me to be maybe a little quieter and shyer.
Yeah, that's not really me. I would say it's only been the last five years maybe for myself to finally feel more comfortable with who I am. Before that it was always this tension of one thing I'm doing this. Cause I think people expect me to, but then I'm miserable, right?
Mm-hmm. . And so how do you navigate that? I don't think anyone does it well. Like that's a piece I'm super mindful of. And I don't mean to make it sound easy cuz it's really not. . And finding those people that you can genuinely trust and have those deeper conversations with is hard . It's fine.
Stu Murray: Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Right? I have that, that saying that comes up, life can make you bitter or better is [00:37:00] something, And it's like the tendency or desire to wanna armor up is natural. Like you said, if we've been burned, it's like, Oh, I don't want to feel that again. I don't wanna go there.
And that's probably been most prominent in my intimate relationships where I've had some really challenging experiences and then for long periods of my life remained close off. And a lot of that wasn't even necessarily in the most intentional ways, but I was attracting things that were not going to bring me into the depth that I'm actually seeking in, in intimate relationships.
And so I have to go back in and heal these wounds because trauma will teach us to armor up, but healing will teach us to set proper boundaries. And I think there's a real distinction there because those can get confused and that line can get really blurred. And so rather than reacting with old patterning and keeping on these different layers of armor to be able to [00:38:00] unpack that, to understand that humans are also flawed, infallible. To find forgiveness for them, to find forgiveness for ourselves, and then to move into, Well, I don't want to repeat that, so I'm gonna be aware of that marble jar scenario where trust is built over time.
I'm not gonna put all my cards out and I'm also gonna set these really healthy boundaries here so that we don't end up in a scenario where either of us has to go through what was lived and what was experienced. That was really painful before.
Sally Ng: Yeah. I feel like there was a time where people were like, Oh yeah, your personal and professional life, Wes is like totally separate. No, come on, we're in the world. It's like social media. People are like, Oh, well I'll rename myself a different name so people can't find me. Well, how about you just don't post anything that's inappropriate instead of being worried that something is gonna get you in trouble, Right?
Cause I'm like, Great. So then you're hiding the real you or you're just pretend like it's these funny things that you see. And from a personal relationship side, it's like we all have [00:39:00] a lot of those family, Like even. Because I, I recognize it too. It's like I was in a 10 year relationship. I was married for six to seven, gone through separation twice with the same person, like the legal pieces, right?
Mm-hmm. there's the functional things of you need this done. I didn't realize the first time around separating the emotional toll that it put on me. Cuz you just kind of chug away at things and getting help, Like asking for help. Okay, do you have a therapist? Do you have a psychologist? Do you actually have friends that are, you're, do you have friends that you're being honest with to have that conversation with? Are your friends being honest with you of asking the right questions? I learned the hard way the first time of not putting in that support system for myself and second time around much better. It made it easier, but it's still hard to go through that, someone I was saying to earlier has, I worked with entrepreneurs and founders all the time. If you looked at the ecosystem or founder entrepreneurs, 10, 15 years ago, the Brene Browns didn't really exist.
Yes, you had the Oprahs, [00:40:00] but no one was genuinely talking about how hard it is to be an entrepreneur, be a founder, the emotional like baggage and struggles that an entrepreneur has when you're, when you have 50 people on payroll and you have to hit these milestones or you have rent, all these pieces.
And so 15, 20 years ago, you start to see the emergence of a lot of peer groups and entrepreneurs getting together versus now entrepreneurs, I would say they still need that, but they need it in a different form because people now are starting to have a bit more of the language around the emotions that they have versus spend 10, 15 years ago, none of us did.
And if your family like, I talk about like Asian family cuz that's, that is my lived experience. Traditionally, not a lot of Asian families talk about emotions and feelings. We're not a culture that's necessarily known for that. And so, yeah. How does that embed into my personal relationships?
How does that embed into how I manage people in the workplace? Guarantee there's a piece for it, especially where, I worked with indigenous [00:41:00] communities and I remember writing a program the first time. I had someone come up to me and said, Sally, we know you mean well, but you're actually coming off too harsh.
You're actually triggering one of our participants that was a residential school survivor and you are coming off as controlling, and you can't call these things homework in this program. And I was like, Oh my God. Like that is not my intention at all. And I totally can see. As soon as she called me out on it, I could immediately see how I was creating that environment, which wasn't at all the environment I wanted to create.
Of course. Yeah. And. Yeah. And I like to the group of participants, I apologize. And I said to them, I didn't recognize how my lived experience was affecting how I was doing this program. And not that I was trying to make excuses by any means. I said to them, I grew up in a super Asian family, but I'm super grateful that I had the privilege that my parents put me into Chinese school.
I learned Chinese dancing. I can kind of forget how to read now and write, [00:42:00] but I had that culture embedded in me. And so I can't imagine ever having that culture stripped away from me and then add to it my, this is gonna sound crazy. But my parents sent me away back to Malaysia when I was seven for three years. Because they thought I was getting too canadianized North Americanized, and outta control. So I finished grade one. You're the teacher. I'm like, I don't know how crazy a grade one kid can be, but I got sent away right after grade one for three years. And so, Wow. Go back to Malaysia and the school system, like the schools rank you one to 42.
I was always between 17 and 21. You didn't score a certain mark, you lined up and got hit on the hand. At least like what for it? Yeah. So that is the culture. As much as I don't have an accent, people don't think I'm a first generation immigrant. These are the embedded experiences that I had growing up.
And so my definition of what a classroom or teaching style could be like. Thankfully I had like I had all these other pieces of me, [00:43:00] but I also knew that I had to acknowledge like what makes me that super strict person. It's one cause the ch Chinese culture. Number two, I was an air Cade. Funded by the military from 12 to 18.
I'm still a reservist. Everyone knows what the stereotypes like of a military are. So you had these like super structure environments and it's, the irony is I'm not that now, I'm sticking out, well whiteboard facilitation, but at the same time I know when to get super structured when I need to move things forward.
But you always have that tension. I think that sometimes, and it's taken me a long time to think about, okay, what are those experiences that have shaped me good and bad to who I am? What are some of those traumas or stories that I'm telling myself, that I should work through or need to work through?
Stu Murray: Totally. I really like that. I like that from the sense of understanding other people's [00:44:00] experiences and being able to bring in more empathy and compassion and understanding into how we relate so that we can truly see other people better and more clearly as they are. And also just the amount of unconscious conditioning that we're bringing into our relationships that are hijacking the potential that we could create together.
Whether that's an intimate relationship or professional relationship, all of these different things. And we might not see certain experiences, as you said, like it might not be this big traumatic event, but there's a little child in us who's had different experiences that has been influenced in different ways and that child can step up and take control. And I just think it's really important, talking about in the business world, in our personal worlds, that, we're starting to do that work and as you said, the bene browns and these different people are coming into that space more and more. And it seems [00:45:00] like those discussions are being more normalized and increasing, which is really awesome because that way we can actually do that more challenging work and take a look within and see what kind of like reactive patterning do I have here that is influencing how I'm relating to people and how do I instead of react in these certain situations, how do I observe what's happening in me and respond in a healthy, constructive, mature way?
can change everything.
Sally Ng: It's a pr like I say, it's like it's a practice. It's not a, it's a practice. There's so many resources now. Like it's not like we go through, it's like setting boundaries. It's like sometimes I'm great at it, sometimes I'm definitely not. Or sometimes I probably break my friend's boundaries.
I'm sure of it, by accident. And so
Stu Murray: yeah,
Sally Ng: it is. Yeah. It's not a black or
Stu Murray: white thing.[00:46:00] No, it's not. And that's where the nuance and the vulnerability and all these things come in, cuz there it is not a dogmatic pathway to any, any kind of way of being. It's like, follow these six easy steps and be a great human that, you know, there's perhaps fundamental values and principles that can help guide these.
But in terms of translating that into very concrete actions, it just doesn't work that way. And I think we've. Moving now towards, you've mentioned it a few times that working in the diversity and inclusion space, and I think that is clearly something that you've been more passionate about, particularly in the last few years.
Obviously because of your personal history and I'm sure your experiences in the professional workplace as well. Why has diversity and inclusion become such an important thing for you to focus on?
Sally Ng: Yeah, and one thing I'll say is when I say diversity inclusion, obviously there's the race side of it, right? In terms of like by individuals, like black, indigenous people of color, then there's a whole women and [00:47:00] men, there's different learning styles. There's so many different spectrums of diversity that I'm very conscious of. For me growing up in New Brunswick, it's not very diverse, right?
Like I used to joke around, I'm like, Oh, I went to Fredericton High. There's 2000 students, five are Asians. At first, two of them were my sisters , right? There weren't that many of us in that way. So you obviously know you stick out, but you're also not trying to bring extra attention to yourself.
And I always joke with any of my friends that are colored that, if you just listen to us, we probably make the number of racist jokes that we make with each other is a lot. Right? And then I had a conversation with friend a while back. I was like, Why do we do that? And one friend was sort of said, it's cuz it's the only way you fit in, right?
If you already know that you're different and you're awkward, like, how do you break the ice? Mm-hmm. you break it. Either if it's like self deprecating jokes or whatever [00:48:00] else. And so it was sort of that, and sometimes it's okay-ish, depending on what, obviously the context and the joke is sometimes it's like, okay, that really is not the right way to go about it.
But one thing was when I was in Toronto, I was working with one of my coworkers and he's from Venezuela and he's part of the career community as well, and is a visible minority. And we were, it was about a month into working in Toronto. And so super diverse, right?
The city of Toronto compared to Fredericton. And we're walking up the street and he says to me, he's like, Sally, you're the first person of color that I've met. That's my age, that's super well connected. And you're not from a wealthy family. He's like, How did you get there? And I just looked at him being like, What?
like what are you talking about? And I literally did know what to say to him because at that point I had never, I knew I was well connected, but I really had never thought of it from that lens of being a bipo individual. And so that was [00:49:00] 2019. And so that was sort of, I'd say one big trigger for me that then really started to really make me reflect on okay, how did I get actually get here?
How have I gotten the jobs the last little while? Who have I surrounded to who have been my champions, who have not, What are those lived experiences that I had as a first generation immigrant that I like struggle with? Even if I think of my parents, like they run a number of businesses in Fredericton, they would never go to a chamber event cause they don't feel included.
And it's like, well why? And I've always known that because I used to run the entrepreneurship center, but I. Why is that? And then I started to really think about, okay, like especially I care about Atlantic Canada, I've grown up here. I'm very loyal to it. Immigration's gonna start to increase. Like it's gonna be immigrants flying businesses, it's gonna be immigrants taking over businesses or the workforce is gonna be a lot more diverse.
We're gonna be like from a climate change standpoint, like refugees are probably gonna come here like climate refugees because we're actually one of the safer [00:50:00] countries that's not gonna get flooded to the same extent as some of the other developing countries. Are we ready for that? I don't think so. Right. And then you see movements like Black Lives Matter, like Asian hate, which is terrifying. As an female Asian, New York was the last city that I went to before the pandemic. I am terrified to go back to New York. I will generally really say that. Yeah.
Like the insane. Attacks that have happened in New York, especially with Asian women, like completely random acts of violence. And I mean like people getting pushed into tracks, people getting thrown into fences, attacking in their apartments, right? That's the stuff that media doesn't actually cover, but the number of attacks like in New York and in San Francisco against Asian individuals.
It's insane, right? Because they blame, like, so there's that whole piece that it's like, okay, what is the environment that I can control or not control? What are the environments that I can change [00:51:00] like that? It's all of a combination of that I think that's made me really dig into the de space.
But how it can't be the side little tangent thing that we do. It should be embedded into everything that we do. If it's in the classroom, if it's in the workplace, if it's how we show up at the gym or volunteer or boards, programs, all of it. That right now it's the sexy, hot topic, but people don't know how to deal with it.
I work in the startup and venture capital space and not too long ago, the head of one of the investment funds kind of joked was like, Oh, Sally, the organization you work for is gonna start a new fund. Right. And the organization I worked for was supporting PAC Entrepreneurs and I told 'em on the side afterwards, but in that moment I just kinda, haha laughed him off, laughed at him and I said to him on the side afterwards, I said, I wish we wouldn't have to start a diversity equity inclusion fund for investment.
I wish all of the funds would just actually be more conscious of it. I wish we didn't need funds that were [00:52:00] women focused only. Mm-hmm. I wish it was just embedded into everything, but obviously the world is not there. Like you see Serena Williams, she's starting a fund. Like she's all about supporting like people of color.
Yeah. And women founders and a venture capital fund. I think she raised 200 million. Right. Like you're starting to see that emergence of it, that Yeah, like to me it's like okay, let's do it . It's not gonna happen overnight.
Stu Murray: Yeah. No it's not. And you're right. It is unfortunate that it's just not, we're not there.
And so we're seeing the pendulum swing and I mean, ultimately it will be nice when we can. Root down into our fundamental values of respect. And because we claim these things but then we don't, we haven't acted in accordance with that for centuries. The u USA is founded on this idea of freedom and liberty and basic human rights, and [00:53:00] yet it's built on slavery and women couldn't vote for most of the inception of this country, right? There's just so much deep oppression and intersecting issues that we need to unpack together in honest, authentic ways, and it's going to bring up challenges for so many of us. And so, I guess I'm wondering it. One thing that comes up for me, there is like this concept of universal design and education where we say, Well, what's good for one can be good for all.
And so, somebody might need, manipulatives in the math class to be able to use so that they can add and move things around that could benefit everybody and working to create these kind of spaces. I'm, but I digress. I wanna ask you what your take is on how we can actually, what are [00:54:00] some real tangible, practical ways that we can start to really move in and lean into creating more diversity and inclusion and these equitable spaces in social and business contexts?
Sally Ng: Yeah, I think so from some of the experiences and conversations I've had the last couple years, let's say supporting female entrepreneurs. Like we know, Okay, women obviously represent 50 50. How many female founders are there? How many of them are elevated to the same extent of the, I'll say the male counterparts is somewhat less for sure. But if you're a female and you're running up in an entrepreneurial program, I hope that program provides childcare, right? At a very basic level. And so when you think of the audience that you're serving or the, like I always say talk about servant, servant leadership a lot. It's like that audience that you're actually looking to serve.
What do they actually need to be successful? What are the pieces outside of [00:55:00] functional curriculum that they need to have? So there's always the functional pieces that everyone needs, and then the emotional piece, Yeah, you can teach them financials and marketing, but the emotional need is, hey, they just maybe had a newborn, or they have three kids at home all under the age of five.
Yes, they might have a partner, maybe they don't. But we all know that women tend to do more in the house than men. There's lots of studies. I don't need to convince anyone of that. So how do you actually, fundamentally ensure that the right, that you're conscious of that to make that happen.
The other side too, and I'll stick to the lens on women, cuz I think that one's maybe easier for people to sort of initially get into. One of the big tech benefits that are merging out of keeping women in tech careers and professional development is like fertility treatments and egg freezing.
So I think we talked about it maybe a little bit last time where, I have four different friends all going through egg freezing treatments right now. Right? And I personally have explored it and yeah, [00:56:00] if you wanna keep women in the workforce, I have this ticking clock that I have no way to control.
And in different companies when they're large, multibillion million dollar corporations, can you increase your health benefit or give them, give your employees something a little bit extra so that it keeps female executives in the workplace a little bit longer. That, they don't feel that they have to make that choice in that.
And so it's once again, thinking about that, those emotional aspects of what an individual needs, if I made the mistake, so I was serving on a board and we brought on a new immigrant as one of our board members, and it was a pretty small board. There's six to seven of us. What I realized was that this board member had just come to Canada within the last year and a half, and we failed to onboard this person properly in the sense that they're new, they needed a buddy.
Like they're new to Canada as a person. they're new to Canada as a board director of what it means to do business in Canada versus another country. [00:57:00] And on top of it, they're the only new board director out of six or seven of us. So right away they felt isolated. We needed to go. What we should have done, what I should have done was go above and be, I wouldn't say it's going above beyond like I needed, We needed to actually put things in place to actually make sure that individual, as a new immigrant, new board member, female person of color, actually had the right support system and we failed them on it.
So now we're trying to fix it, which is always makes things harder cuz you, you've lost some of that trust and it's like really intentionally designing it. I think thinking that through is really important. Even for my Guinea pig side projects, cuz I, I feel like I'm at the point where I get really frustrated now.
I'm like, ugh. This is gonna drive me nuts. Okay, what can I do to possibly fix it or help it or shift it? One of them is, you see a lot of individuals now cuz boards committees are trying to be a little bit more diverse. And so I'll pick on board governance and fiduciary duty cuz the not [00:58:00] for profit space especially, a lot of young people and women and mostly I'd say young and by pocket individuals are getting tokenized.
So some of them absolutely have the experience sit on boards, but they're also there because, hey, I'm the one and only Asian female. Okay. And you can take her or leave it. You're like, well, okay fine. You want me to play that card? I'm gonna take full advantage of it, . But then there's that part where they're getting set up for failure if they've never had other people to talk to and all of that, and they don't know how to show up as a director. And so I'm really excited. This fall, I just decided actually the last two weeks I'm gonna be launching this like Guinea pig side project that's gonna be focused on eight to 10 fairly young they can either be young women or person of color that are fairly new to sitting on boards. And I'm going to do a mini training session with a couple other partners on it, on how they show up in the room, as I'll say under-represent individuals as boards of directors to make sure that they know how to navigate that.
But also they have the peer [00:59:00] group. So now you pull together eight people. It's about convening and connecting them. We'll do six to eight hours of content with them, but we know they're getting tokenized. Okay, fine. Play that card. How else can we help? And so there's those pieces of what am I observing and what does that community need?
Is, I think that constant reflection and no one's doing it perfectly, and so we're gonna mess up. Right. No different than my lessons learned of working with indigenous communities over the years too.
Stu Murray: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And again, like you said, there's no dogmatic way forward. It's not like this is how we create diversity and inclusion and in the workplace is not, you know, there.
There obviously, again, it's like it'll be underpinned by solid values, solid principles that can help govern how we move forward. But I love what you say about the idea of just listening to the people who are actually experiencing the challenges and. Starting [01:00:00] there. It's similar in the environmental world, which is my background.
And like coming in when there's a challenging situation, almost bringing in this colonial style model where we have already created a template and assume we know what's best because here's the challenges they face. So we've got our model and that's already gonna solve it. And it's like, well, we haven't even talked to the people on the land who are facing these issues to find out the nuance or the challenges.
Maybe they've already tried that. Right? And so really going in and starting just with listening without any preconceived agendas or ideas is something that I think would be such an excellent starting point for us to genuinely get curious about what's going on so that we can work genuinely together with these people to move something.
And I'm curious in your time in that space do you have any interesting stories of some successful work you've been able to do around increasing diversity inclusion [01:01:00] or contributing to more equitable spaces?
Sally Ng: So, I think mine, and maybe it's depressing in a way. I feel like for me personally, I'm not there yet.
I feel like there's still so much change. I'm on the journey of starting to try to influence it. I started on a national board for a foundation called, Community Foundations of Canada years ago. And it was a national organization, had a network of 191 local charities and community foundations.
And because of that, I understood endowments a little bit better and so, For me personally, I was putting my money where my mouth is. And so when I had the good job in Toronto, I was making a really good income. I launched an endowment fund to specifically helped to support underrepresented founders in Atlantic Canada by supporting the organization.
So I launched that in 2019. And then, because a lot of my board governance work I've done, I launched a second fund last year when I finished my institute of corporate directors, accreditation to support [01:02:00] it's called the diverse, a diversity inclusion fund. And specifically to help individuals get board access to board training.
And so I feel like for me, I'm not there yet. Like I, like these are still such early little sparks, I'll say. And if I was to even like point at an organization, I don't know if there's one that comes to mind. That does it really well. Cause I, I feel like we're at this like convergence point where everyone's just sort of trying to figure it out at the moment.
Stu Murray: Right? Well, that means there's a lot of opportunity for us to really work on these things and move that forward.
Sally Ng: Yeah. No, definitely. For sure.
Stu Murray: And I'm sure it, like you've had your pulse on these things and are very passionate. So I look forward to continuing to follow and see what you do come up with and if anybody is interested in learning more about some of that work you're doing in that space or working with you through the triple [01:03:00] effect and getting some support with their business or the not for profit or the startup.
How can they get in touch with. Yeah,
Sally Ng: for sure. My website's definitely outta date. go my website. I think the best way is catch me on LinkedIn. Yeah. And I'll start to, one of the things I said to myself the next year is that I'm going to start writing sort of like little micro bloggs or reflections and it helps me from a journaling standpoint as well.
So if it can be helpful for folks going through some of that. And yeah, LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, you'll see lots of puppy photos. . Yeah. But I'll post a couple different things here and there with it.
Stu Murray: Well, you have a cute puppy, so even that alone is worth tuning in. That's awesome. That's awesome.
Sally, is there anything else you'd like to share with the listeners before we sign?
Sally Ng: I think somebody, I heard this the other day actually on a webinar I was on, and it was around like [01:04:00] intentional pauses and taking breaks even in a workday or in different lives. And it was the best analogy I've heard.
And it was if someone said to you, Okay, go do a hundred pushups, you'd probably be like, Oh God. It's daunting. But then if I said, Hey, go do 10 sets of 10 pushups, you're like, Okay, would I get through the a hundred pushups? Probably, right. It'll still be hard, but you'll get through it. Some of those pauses could be larger or shorter, whatever that timeframe is, but we need those pauses to sort of make it through the a hundred pushups or whatever that journey is. And it is what it is. That's just how we are. That was like such a simple analogy that really stuck with me.
Stu Murray: I love that. That's a really wonderful reminder that I'll also take with me today to make sure that I take time to pause and to slow down and do appreciate just being, you know, after all, we are human beings, not human doing. So amongst all the doing, just to be able to sit back and take that time for [01:05:00] presence and for connection is so key.
I have really appreciated our chats and loved where we went with that in terms of relationship building and diversity and inclusion and think you're doing some amazing work in those spaces. So thank you so much again for taking the time. I've really appreciated it.
Sally Ng: Yeah, no, thanks so much. This is a really fun chat.
So thanks for doing everything that you do.
Stu Murray: Thanks for tuning into this episode. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. Make sure to subscribe to this podcast and follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok at Stu Murray podcast. Check out the Stu Murray podcast available on all streaming platforms and leave a comment or a review.
Let me know if this episode resonated with you and what you want to hear more of as we move forward in the future. Thank you so much, and I'll see you next Monday.