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Lead with Purpose W/ Matt Thompson and Bradley Daye #31

When you meet certain people in your life, it’s not always clear what role they will play.

My guests Matt Thompson and Bradley Daye are two of those people. We met over a decade ago playing football at Mount Allison University. We’ve all gone through some massive shifts over those years and throughout that time we have only grown more aligned in how we want to show up in the world. They have become lifelong brothers and will forever inspire me to be a better human.

In this episode we discuss:

  • Purpose driven business/organizations

  • Creating spaces where people can thrive

  • The importance of leading by example

  • What true masculine leadership looks like

And so much more! I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.


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stu murray: All right, boys. Matty Bday, we made it happen. I've been looking [00:01:00] forward to this conversation for quite a while, and I mean, we connected a decade ago, over a decade ago now, and have since been on some wild personal trajectories and had an opportunity to reconnect this summer, and the conversations were on fire.

It was just magical and it was really a huge part of the highlight of that weekend for me. So I'm excited now to circle back and dive a little bit deeper into this

Bradley Daye: diving in. Love it. It's one of those things where, you know, you have. You have a lot of relationships in your life and you don't know which ones are gonna, circle back and who's gonna be on the same plane as you. And I think we all got to that location and all got to that kind of weekend and realized we were very much on the same plane as each other.

And, you're right, like it was definitely the highlight of my weekend, was reconnecting with you and the time we got to hang [00:02:00] out and swinging the sticks was secondary.

stu murray: Fun, fun. Nonetheless. But this was epic. And I would say though, that even knowing you both back in the day, you two in particular stood out to me as leaders on that team and stood out among the many people that we played with and worked with every day.

Because what I noticed in you both is that you had such a high degree of integrity and worked hard to build up. The people around you. And that energy has not shifted, but the mindset and the perspectives is continue to deepen and like that realization of who do I want to be and how do I wanna show up, is continuing to deepen.

But I've seen that, and I've had deep respect for you both as humans who just really try and align what you do with how you show up and how you speak and how you are in the world. So there's been big respect there for a while, but it's cool to see the alignment [00:03:00] in some philosophical and different aspirations for how we wanna create a more beautiful world.

Matt Thompson: Yeah, I was just gonna say Suzy,, well, first of all, I have to say, or else it's just gonna be on my mind the whole time. I think swinging the sticks with Swizz is the third podcast you should. That's a good one. Big fan of alliteration.

But the first of all, super humbling to hear you say that and right back at you. I believe in love at first sight, and I think that can take many shapes and I think that there's a beautiful, connection that was made kind of many years ago.

But I think that what you're referring to in you know, what you're calling like leadership and all those kinds flattering words that you said, I think were moments. The way that I describe it is there were moments in my life in the past from when I was a kid to high school, to in university where there were like flashes of my true self and moments where things just happened and I was able to be my true self, but it wasn't, it was kind of by happenstance and by.

It wasn't intentional. And I think where we're at now is to be more intentionally on that plane and striving for that as opposed to just having happening, to have [00:04:00] the alchemy and the chemistry around us to kind of bring that out in us. Now we can try to be a little bit more intentional about it.

stu murray: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. The awareness is key to be able to bring that intention, but it was, it is obvious, there's, because there is that deeper sense of leadership where we actually really. Be what we say. And so even if it's at the time, you know, it's like, man, we all played the same positions and so we were all training together.

And Bday sometimes, or you guys would get out and really give the gears to somebody, but it made sense. It wasn't this top down thing. It's like, here, I'm working my ass off and I'm gonna hold you accountable to be your best self, because I see that in you too. And that was something that came through for me and it's now that's just shifting on, you know, it's not the football field anymore, it's the field of life and the kind of values and virtues that we wanna bring forward in that.

So it, it just looks differently.

Bradley Daye: Let's, let's call

Matt Thompson: it as it is though, if it's Bday coming down on somebody, it's top down. If it's anybody else, it's like, okay, middle

Bradley Daye: punching up. [00:05:00] But

There's talent and there's hard work. And I think we all witnessed a lot of people that were some combination of those two things. And there seemed to be this algorithm of like, the less talent you have, the harder you have to work. Whereas I felt everybody should be working just as hard.

And I think that was almost a, I could see it as a frustration for some people. And you know, at the end of the day you can only control what you can control. But if you as somebody with talent and hard work can lead by example to show people no, it's not just talent, it's hard work too.

And I think that that was really, When I reflect on it now was what I was kind of striving to be the better version of myself. And so if that meant that I could utilize my talent, but also work my ass off and show the people that are even more [00:06:00] talented than me, that they need to be working harder.

That's kind of what it felt like for me anyway. And when we got to Mount a, I mean, let's be honest, it was not a winning culture. You had a bunch of people that showed up from winning environments. You had a bunch of people that showed up from winning programs and there needed to be a culture shift there because the attitude was like, win or lose, we still booze.

And it was like, oh no, that's not, why are we doing this ?

stu murray: Totally. I got a pretty strong anti-authoritarian bone in my body. And so anybody who tries to speak up and isn't living in alignment with what they believe to be true. Pretty much bucket most, 10 times outta 10. So there's something, when somebody is though, I'll tell you, and I, I have a strong ability to respect authority when people are actually leading from the heart.

And I think, you know, we can't deny that we live in places where people are better at us than other things. And there's places where we can learn from each other. And there's other places [00:07:00] where we can be the teachers for each other. And when somebody's doing that from such a genuine nature and really doing it for that betterment of all, and holding people accountable because they're living that themselves, like, I had no problem. I felt inspiration, not frustration, from people like you two who were really living into that. So that's something that stuck with me.

Matt Thompson: I'm just, just receiving all these wonderful words of affirmation on Tuesday. I think what you're hitting on those Swizz, what you're hitting on Swizz is just living, authentically. And I think, you know, I would still argue that at the time, for me anyway, it was still fig very much still figuring myself out and figuring out what that looked like.

And I feel like that's one of the blessings of those years in our life where, and one of the reasons why we create such strong connections is that we're growing into the humans that we eventually are together at that time. We're messing up, we're doing the right thing. We're doing both, we're doing neither, all those things at [00:08:00] the same time.

But what you're hitting on is kind of if you're able to live authentically, it just minimizes your energy output too, because you don't have to put up a guard, right? So, yeah, appreciate it. It's all reciprocal by the way.

stu murray: Well it is, and there's something about being around people who are authentic, where it gives you permission to take off some of your masks and figure out more who you are. And I think there's something within all of us that wants that. And we have this deep drive for belonging and to express ourselves authentically. And sometimes those two can come in conflict with one another. And so, being around people who have the courage to lean into being themselves, regardless of how that's perceived by others is a really amazing way to give us permission to do the same thing and for us to show up. Because nobody's being better at us, than us,

So, you know, it's, it's a short enough life that we might as well have the courage, try and lean in and do what we can with that

Bradley Daye: words of wisdom

Matt Thompson: with, that's the fourth [00:09:00] podcast. Keep them coming. I'm just gonna fill you up.

stu murray: So five, five-ish years ago, you guys had been in, occupying different worlds, doing different things, and then there was a magical reunion in a different way. I'm sure you'd been keeping in touch in a certain way, but obviously something had come together. And out of that you ended up creating a company together, which is now thriving and doing amazing things and providing a huge impact. And I'd love to hear a little bit about the inception of this beautiful developing, growing organism that you guys are a part

Bradley Daye: of. Hmm. What do you think, Mattie? You wanna kick it off and, you go

Matt Thompson: ahead.


Bradley Daye: take, you take the lead. Sounds good. So, yeah, it's interesting how something can become something as you described as magical and thriving and all of these things. And that's [00:10:00] what I definitely feel every day. And it's funny cuz it probably started from a motivation that was rooted in different things like frustration and anger and disappointment and while those are typically energies that don't really serve us, I guess they gave us that initial spark to actually do something.

And I don't think it really would've gone anywhere if we didn't transform that energy into something that was a lot more purposeful. But ultimately when we started out, it was out of a frus, a place of frustration for kind of where we were as a province. It started kind of provincially.

So if we think about Nova Scotia, there was a report that came out called, the one Nova Scotia report, or the Now or Never Report. and there were, you know, 17 goals that were set out and a lot of them were around employment, whether directly or indirectly, a lot of them centered around employment, whether that was [00:11:00] retaining and attracting newcomers, whether that was African Nova Scotia and indigenous employment. There was a lot of things that were, maybe they were actually tourism, kind of, but mostly they were really talking about employment. And so we looked at those numbers and we looked at the trajectories. We looked at where we were going and. We didn't want to generate another report.

We didn't want to talk about some of the solutions and we were feeling it ourselves. We didn't feel valued, we didn't feel aligned. We didn't feel connected to the work that we were doing for other companies and didn't resonate with the culture that was there, didn't resonate with the purpose.

It was work that didn't fulfill us. And as much as we were looking for a way out of that environment, I don't think we truly knew what we were creating in the moment. And out of that frustration, it was, well, how can we make a difference? How do [00:12:00] we structure that and how do we actually.

Turn it into something that's sustainable and achievable. And we sat down, Matt and I, with our third co-founder Lauren, who is like, okay, attraction of attention. You wanna do something about it? Well, recruiting is a thing. We're like, what is recruiting ? And also do we structure as a non-profit?

Do we structure as a for-profit? Like how do we build this thing? We didn't know the first thing about the first thing, and I think that's been something that has been actually refreshing about how we built it, is because we came into it from a very humble place of not knowing anything.

And I think we've treated it to this day as not knowing anything. And so when we looked at recruiting and people were like, well, here's the way that you do recruit. I'm like, mm, I don't really know if I resonate with this way of doing recruiting or here's how you register a [00:13:00] business. It's like, mm, I don't know if we wanna have a business that's registered in that way.

Why nonprofit, why for profit, maybe community interest company is best for what we're trying to achieve. And I think, you know, every decision we've made along that journey has been from that place of what is best gonna serve us. And I think the last thing I'll say before I let Matt take over from what sparked the interest to what kind of some of the actual action was, was that, very, very, very early on when we were still both working full-time jobs and doing this opposite side of our desk, Our third co-founder Lauren, had recommended an organization that we talked to and begrudgingly in a lot of ways begrudgingly, we were like, ok, yeah, I guess we should do this thing.

And it was the purpose led business school, it was ventures and like, okay, it sounds kind of wishy-washy, like what actual value is this going to bring? And I [00:14:00] actually was in Scotland at the time talking about how all these social enterprises were blowing my mind. I was opened up to a whole new world and way of doing business.

And I remember getting on a call with Matt when I got back and I was like, we're not doing enough. Like social enterprise is exploding globally. There is a social shift happening. I'm so inspired. And he was like, yeah, I just found my purpose in life. So you need to chill . And so we both had these like incredible experiences and then me coming back and doing that work kind of on my own.

In that purpose and values work, was the catalyst for everything. We didn't really know who we were. We had all this energy, but we didn't really know who we were and, and what our values were. And when we established that core foundation, we were able to build everything off of that in a really solid, foundational way as opposed to this crumbling, I don't really know who [00:15:00] I am and what I'm trying to do.

Everything came from that place of purpose and values. And so the foundation was laid in a way that was incredibly purposeful. And, you know, everything that came after that I think is a result of that.

Matt Thompson: Hmm. It was right. Didn't know the first thing about the first thing. I've never heard you say that, and I love that so much. That was basically six years ago. Cuz there's lots of conversation and, trying to figure out what it is that we wanted to do, because as Bradley said, we didn't know the first thing about the first thing. And I think there was two things that was clear when we started and kind of pick up from where Bradley was.

People were attracted to like our energy, our fire, what we were talking about. Even though there wasn't that much substance to what we were talking about, they were really attracted to the way in which we were talking about it. And I think that we were, because of that, we were still navigating, you know, transitioning from that energy of frustration of [00:16:00] like being pissed off of wanting to do something into actual purposeful energy.

And this transition into being able to understand our individual purposes as well as that of eventually of the organization through purpose led business school was one that really allowed that transition to take place. And we were able to make that energy, positive energy and one of abundance as opposed to one of fighting back against scarcity.

So in being able to launch into, to, you know, I think Bradley, I forget what it is that you said, but I think you would referred to the purpose led business school as the only business school that you would ever wanna go to, or the only business school that people need, or something along those lines.

And I would very much agree with that because it combines human dynamics with business mechanics, and that's ultimately what we've looked to do. We work in a field that is, you know, commonly known as human resources, we refer to as human dynamics.

Because we try to not commodify individuals. We try to not commodify humans. Identifying individuals as resources is [00:17:00] pretty clear message that you send in that way. So our attempt, in place making 4G is to really humanize the world of work to create and hold space where people can be seen and heard.

And I think that's, it's boiled down a little bit more than it could be in that way because there's a bunch of really. Impactful work that we're privileged to be able to do on a daily basis. But ultimately it really does come down to that kind of following your heart and intentionality and creating the space for others to do the same, and to inspire them to do that as well.

We lean into our values very, very regularly as an organization. Those values are to amplify community and trust. And we lean into our purpose as an organization, on a daily basis. And that's to inspire a values driven climate where contributors thrive and purpose ignites action.

We do that through, socially conscious recruiting. We take an innovative way to help organizations build their teams from a human centered approach. One of the foundations of what we're built upon is diversity,[00:18:00] equity, inclusion, and belonging and creating spaces for people to belong and to not fit in, but to be their true selves and to really align their values, but to contribute to organizations.

So, you know, cut to five years later, ultimately, that's where we're at. It feels like a dream oftentimes, and we're still navigating all of the things that we don't because there's a ton that we don. But we're able to do it with some of the most inspiring kind of team members and mentors around us and clients as well, as we work through this process.

And I guess, you know what I would, what I'd throw on that personally is, as a father at the time when, of our inception, father of two, and now a father of three, I'd say the most humbling thing that, that I kinda keep coming back to is that through this work and through this journey that we're on, I'm able to show my kids that you can thrive because of a, not in spite of who you are.

And I think that's something that I've been trying to put my finger on, for my whole life. [00:19:00] And letting yourself be yourself in that space. You know, warts and all you navigate and it's never cemented, it's never concrete. You're always evolving as a human. But being able to do that and to just be crystal clear about what that looks like, has been a guiding light.

And it's allowed for us to do a lot of the work that we've done as well because we're not wasting energy on to pretend something that we're not.

stu murray: Wow. I've got like a hundred different questions and thoughts set up. My brain's just going in all the different ways. I'm feeling tremendously inspired because I personally have a deep conviction that it is the human centered design and the ways that we can actually build up the best in each other.

It's, that's saying, a rising tide will lift all boats. And so knowing from the core of our being that if we can lift up those around us and all of us are gonna be better off for it. And you mentioned that shift from scarcity to abundance, which is such a powerful mindset, shift that to really recognize that the deepest part of [00:20:00] our being, that more for you genuinely means more for me.

And we've been in this way where we've tried to squirrel away our resources or squirrel away our energy you know, we're trying to hide these things from getting out and. Obviously it becomes this positive feedback loop when you see that people can be built up and the thriving that can take place.

And then that perpetuates and forces us to be even more responsible and more intentional with how we show up because we see the results of that can bring in the amplification of that. And I want to go into so many of those different topics that both of you just mentioned, but to start off, I'm curious, talking about purpose led business school, talking about the values that drive your company, what is part of that fundamental purpose that you guys landed on within the business and how is that translated to some of the values that actually flow through the company culture?


Bradley Daye: I can take a [00:21:00] stab at that. I'll say this. I think first of all, when we think about organizational culture, and sometimes I like to actually refer to it more as the actual climate cuz climate's change and are always changing, instead of the culture, but. You have to give context to things. And so , we laugh at how much we use the word context, but it just actually allows for people to immediately be on the same page about something.

And as much as our values are amplify community and trust, if those were our values and we were a record label, amplify would mean a totally different thing than it does, you know, maybe it would mean the same thing. But what I'm trying to say is that if you don't have actual behaviors associated to your values, then how do people actually live those values?

So it was really important to us to make sure there were [00:22:00] behaviors associated to each value. And so that way, and I think, I don't think that we're perfect at this yet. I think that there's still. You know, a lot of room for growth and how we live our values. But that's a really strong starting point, is to define the behaviors that are associated to each value and check in when those are showing up and recognize when those are showing up.

And I think there's ways to build that into even how you recognize people for the work that they're doing. A lot of people kinda talk about like performance management, but we haven't had these kind of formal annual reviews where you sit down and your boss tells you you hit your targets and your KPIs.

And we're getting close to doing something like that in that world to hold people kind of accountable to the work that they do. So we've started to [00:23:00] build out what kind of a performance management would look like for our team. That still feels like P 4g. And we say that a lot, feels like P 4G when we're designing something. And I think there's a lot of context to be given for that. But, how do we make sure people are living their values?

How do we make sure people are reflecting on the values that show up? One of the things that Matt said a little while ago that really resonated was, and has always resonated for me because it's something I felt in my own life with. With my mom, who doesn't really, get that level of fulfillment from what she does in terms of I can thrive. Not in spite of, but because of who I am. But you have to know who you are in order to thrive because of who you are. And I think, us wanting to provide the environment that we were given to find ourselves to our staff has been something [00:24:00] that has been, you know, he talked about that being the most rewarding part of all of this for him, the most rewarding part of all of this for me is us doing our best to create that environment for our staff to find out who they are, not what the world tells 'em they are, not what their job description tells them.

They are not these different forms that they identify with. But who are you truly? And how does that show up in the things that you choose to put energy into? So it's been really beautiful to have, you know, 11, 12 people that have come through our organization and, who at the beginning of that may have had blockages to that self actualization of exactly who they are and may have identified as a number of forms over the years in terms of athlete, daughter, all of these [00:25:00] other things.

But when it came down to actually who are you? And allowing people now, To express, this is my purpose. These are my values has been . I can't describe how much that fulfills me. And so anyway, I think that, yeah, I started off by saying that, you know, having the actual kind of behaviors associated to your values are critical to create the kind of climate that you actually want within your organization.

And then the other part is, Actually creating the environment for people to self actualize the their own power and create intentional spaces for that. We do that through retreats. We do that through our head, heart check-in. We do that through our check-ins on Mondays and Fridays. We do that through setting themes for ourselves for the weeks.

We do that through accountability partners. We do that through a lot of different ways of kinda setting intentions [00:26:00] and manifesting and all of these things. So those things have a place and if you don't make space for them, they won't show up. Hell

stu murray: yeah. I'm curious if you could share some of the actual landing on the values, putting these things in context, and then actually sitting through the process.

Pulling out, well, what does that actually look like? How do we be constructive with this to create a container for accountability on how we actually want people to show up? I've experienced the same lack of clarity or that ambiguity in the school system, and then we have these high expectations of young children, but don't even articulate what those actions might look like that we're looking for.

And so I really love that as an organizational structure as a whole. And I'm curious if you could offer an example of what that might actually look like within your workplace climate. Yeah.

Matt Thompson: I would take a little bit of a step back from there and let me know if I'm answering the question with that.

As I [00:27:00] identify, you know, Bradley mentioned and I smiled, when he did, because we do say it a lot and I think we recognize the importance of it, especially when you do things in a different way than other people, organizations, whatnot. That really boils down to being sure that you've set and you have a shared context.

And that's kind of what you're talking about, right? You need to know where that sideline is. You need to know where that end zone is. And, if you're playing on an NFL field and I'm playing on a field, things are gonna be different. I'm gonna be going outta bounds a hell of a lot more than, than,

Bradley Daye: but we don't to.

Matt Thompson: What size field are we playing on? Then we might have, we might butt heads, we might have false expectations. We might not be able to live up to our own standards or your standards for no other reason than by saying, Hey, we didn't start at a foundation of knowing. We didn't start at a foundation of establishing that context.

So, I think what we do as an organization and as individuals hold ourselves accountable. We just came off a two day [00:28:00] fall strategy sprint, where we spent a lot of time talking about values and a lot of time talking about kinda what may be lacking within our current values, which are amplified community and trust.

And one of those, one of those words was courage that came up. And everybody had a chance to give context to courage. They gave a, they had a chance to, establish and share their context of what amplify means to you of what courage means to you as an individual. And that allows for us to make sure that we're moving in the right direction on that Now, as organizational leaders, what our jobs are to take those things away to ensure that our behaviors with which we can hold ourselves accountable and the values themselves are reflective of where we are in this time and space as an organization. Setting that shared context, ensuring we're playing on the same field is incredibly important and then holding ourselves accountable with those behaviors. And I think some of what we talked about here has been like, there's been a tough shift as, I shouldn't say tough actually, cuz it's actually been quite a smooth transition. But there's a [00:29:00] shift about, for me, I'd say about a year ago, as a leader within the organization in feeling like there was always a little bit of imposter syndrome in what we were doing and how we were doing it. Because, Bradley and I have said a couple times, there's a lots that we don't know and there's a ton that we dunno, we do a lot by feel, by gut.

And we're certainly, very receptive to being able to change directions and, be able to realign where needed. But there's a shift that happened where we're able to really lean into that true self and it just felt very natural over the course of, five years.

So if the first four years were a little bit more challenging, then over the last year it's felt very harmonious in leaning into that place of self. And throughout all of that, I'm gonna come back to it. Throughout all of that journey, one thing that, you know, Bradley and I talk about constantly is once a week we'll reach out to each other and be like, Hey, just so you know, like, there's no one else I'd rather be doing this with than you. I don't know how I personally, I don't know how anybody leads an organization on their [00:30:00] own or makes those decisions on their own or doesn't, fall into this like really destructive circular thoughts or falls into this really destructive space where they end up moving further and further away from their true core self.

Be just from a sense of ego, from a sense of whatever else. And this ability to share this experience through the highs and the lows together has been. One of the most impactful things in my life and one of the most impactful things to our organization to be able to navigate that together, to be vulnerable, to lean on each other, to ask for help, to have that kind of sounding board and that co-leadership has been incredibly, incredibly impactful.

And humbling in a really, really huge way. And that's us leaning into our value or to our behavior of show, show up for one another. We need to show up for each other. That's within our value of community, right? We need to show up. And I think that's a way that we can hold ourselves accountable to each other as leaders. And it's one of the ways that we can hold ourselves accountable to [00:31:00] our values as an organization, while also being able to recognize and honor it as being a really huge foundation of how we got to where we are. And God knows how we're gonna get to where we're going. That's for.

Bradley Daye: Yep. I want to touch on the courage piece a little bit. And to the co-founder piece. I also want to touch on that as we just got an email, Matt, I'm not sure if you read through the email from Marge, but we challenged, we pushed back on something that was a little misaligned. So we leaned into that courage last week, which I'll talk a little bit about.

So you can tell the energy we bring to things Stu. And I think kind of listeners can probably tell the energy we bring to things it, and, there's a lot of people that you know right away maybe not resonate with. it's not as like practical. You can't, it's not as tangible.

You can't like kind of grab onto it and hold onto it. And I think we've gotten to a place where we can now share things like, well actually it is tangible because over 70% of the [00:32:00] people we've placed in organizations are from equity deserving groups. And these are the results of the way that we approach our work.

And we're starting to have more of those tangible things that you can chew on, that you can really understand that aren't as in the clouds. But what I'd say is that when we first started, it was really from that place of purpose and values. And the energy you put out is the energy you.

So we were getting clients that really resonated with what we do cuz there was no facts to how it was gonna be successful. There was no, when you're starting something, it's like, okay, that's great, but it doesn't really show that you've done this before. It doesn't show that I can like trust that you're gonna do this really well.

I'm just attracted to the energy and I've gotta take a leap of faith to hire you folks to do this work. So we attracted a lot of people that were like us and we attracted a lot of organizations that were like us. And the work felt pretty easy as a result of that cuz we were [00:33:00] speaking the same language.

But once you cross a threshold, and I'm just putting these thoughts together as I'm talking, so bear with me. But once you cross a threshold of attracting things that are based on your reputation to deliver on a certain thing, it becomes different. They're not maybe attracted to you because they relying with your energy.

You're attracting people based on results and based on a reputation of being a good recruiting firm and based on a reputation of being able to help organizations attract people from underrepresented groups or equity deserving groups. And so now you start to have clients. Not all your clients are gonna be very values aligned with you.

And it's interesting because those are probably the clients that need you the most, but it's not always easy. And I think that's why we're, when we first started out, courage was something that was a little less apparent. [00:34:00] And now as we work with clients that are less and less aligned with our values, and we're trying to push them, not necessarily push them, but guide them gently to a place That is creating a better sense of belonging. Those are hard conversations and there's a lot of hard conversations. Now, we could easily just do the job, put somebody in a role, hope it works out, go about our business, but it wouldn't be us if we weren't challenging those small things. Like is this an equitable process for this recruiting, you know, environment?

How did that feel to the candidate that was involved in that? And as we now start to challenge our clients a lot more and make sure that, okay, we can bring people in, but what kind of environment are we bringing them into? And that means we're expanding into education. That means we're expanding into consulting.

That means we're expanding into strategy. That means we're expanding into a lot of different. Pieces of our [00:35:00] business that are more around the environment that we're creating. Which is also why it's like really important for us to have these conversations and put this kind of energy of this is how you can do business out into the world.

And to give a kind of practical example is you know, Matt was talking about the co-founder and this really wouldn't be anything if it wasn't the two of us. And so, yeah, I can't imagine a world where either of us would've done this on our own. It just, I don't know what that universe is, but it's just not, it's not possible.

And we've always, as many times as we've been told, it's not gonna work. Eventually you're gonna like butt heads. Eventually there's, you're. It's this co-leadership, the co ceo, co-founder, somebody's gotta be the leader and somebody's and we've always been told that it's gonna, it's gonna get messy.

There's things that are gonna happen and we always push back against that. And I can't imagine a place where that wasn't the case. So [00:36:00] I was saying we've doing some work and now being recognized. And so a part of that recognition has been, okay, you're a finalist for the Halifax Chamber Business Award, small business of the year.

We want you to come to this photo shoot. But you can only send one person like, well, wait a minute, this has always been something where it feels like it can't be one person leading this thing. So how do we just bring, and we could have just been like, all right, well who do we wanna send and send one person and go about our business?

But that courage piece that's showing up is saying, well, there's other co-founder situations and what are we saying about co-founders? That there needs to be a leader and there needs to be a, what are we saying about the co-founder relationship? If we do just send one person, are we truly living? Does it feel like p 4g if we just allow this to happen And there's another organization that's being recognized and the treaty partners and we know that they, they're young fired up.[00:37:00]

They remind us a lot of ourselves, which is my Matt smiling right now, they remind us a lot of ourselves five years ago. They're super fired up in creating a lot of impact and they're co-founders. And to have them only send one person that wouldn't be true to who they are. So how are we not just doing this because we wanna have both people involved, but how are we making sure that we are fighting for the other co-founder that co-leadership can.

And so we got an email back today saying that they've made an accommodation and we're both gonna be able to go to the photo and video shoot. And they're willing to make those changes going forward to their process forever. Wow. And it won't just be impactful for us. It'll be impactful for any co-founder, co-leadership relationship going forward.

So there's just more and more and more of those moments of courage where we have to challenge

Matt Thompson: on things.

Bradley Daye: And it's not always a comfortable place to be, but [00:38:00] we approach it from a place of love and we approach it from a place of I'm gonna be your best friend and your best friend is willing to risk the friendship.

And so that's what we're willing to do is we're willing to kind of call something in when we see it and say, Hey, let's have a conversation about this cuz this is how it feels to us.

Matt Thompson: Can I pick up on that Swiss? Go for it, man. Okay. Okay. Thanks buddy. There's a bad habit that I have, which is to kind of sometimes, self-deprecation is one of those things.

And part of my journey over the course of the first four years versus the now has been really leaning away from self-deprecation because I've said in the past in our case, it takes two people to do one person's job. Just because it dison people when they're like, where this co ceo, co-founder, like, what does that mean?

Well, neither of us are adequate, so we have to rely on each other to do it. And to a certain degree that's kind of true, but in also a much larger degree. I think what this specific example does is it allows for us not [00:39:00] perpetuate an unattainable standard. We wouldn't be able to have the impact that we have on the world and the people's lives that we work with on our own lives if we tried to do something on our own.

So what would it be like if we were to project ourselves as being this like one person at the top organization that leadership is lonely and we have the privilege of working with a ton of leaders across multiple different sectors and multiple different organizations. And I can tell you that leadership is lonely.

And if you continue to perpetuate this standard of like, yeah, no, you should be able to do this on your own, then you're not breaking any systems. You're not changing anything at that point. You're only setting people up for failure, setting people up to feel like they're inadequate, setting people up for feeling like they're unable to do what they feel that they've been told they should be able to do on their own.

And this is just one small example, and it's not like worth belaboring the point, but at the same time, it's not a small thing because it's [00:40:00] recognizing that, in our case, from a humanizing perspective, from a humanized perspective, we do this together. And it's incredibly important to do that and to honor that.

And to recognize that we're equally humble enough to say, the two of us that, Hey, we wouldn't be able to do this on our own. And it's just not even, not, there's not even a universe. And we've talked a lot about universes. We've talked a lot about different parallel universes and all these kinds of things.

And if we're saying that there's no universe that exists, we could do it on our own, then that means a lot. There's all wait behind that

stu murray: Oh man. Isn't that the truth? I love this concept of co-leadership. Again, there's like a hundred different thoughts popping off in my head right now about how inspired I am about the kind of climate that you guys are creating and that heart centered leadership, but it isn't the norm. And it makes me think first of all of this African proverb is like, if you wanna go fast, go alone.

But if you want to go far, we gotta move together. [00:41:00] and if we wanna build something sustainable and meaningful that actually can hold, it really does involve us building up community and showing up at the table and bringing all of our unique gifts and all of our unique perspectives because it's only through the relationship and through the mirror of other people that we can actually see ourselves more clearly.

And so just in having the courage to show up and having the courage to be vulnerable and to be honest, and be willing to rumble in a loving way with one another. These are the places that we're gonna grow. But it's also some of the places that we're most terrified of because it really can pull on our desire to belong.

And sometimes if we internalize that conflict with another person might mean that we're not enough, where really it's an opportunity for us to see what's live in somebody else and to help meet the needs of somebody else. Because if their needs are met and my needs can be met, man, what a beautiful world we can create where everybody can really have an opportunity to thrive, which is what you guys are doing and [00:42:00] aligning in all aspects of your business, both the internal aspect and the external. And it's clear. That's clear. And so obviously your messaging is very much aligned with what you guys are doing within your culture.

From the co-leadership to the heart check-ins and the accountability part, like every aspect of the internal functioning to the design and structures of the placements and the groups that you were working with are all very clearly aligned to me on that. And I'm curious to dive into the terms, accountability, showing up, courage for me, these things are all just meshing into one another.

Obviously, if you're gonna be co-leaders, you're going to have to be willing to rumble with one another. And you have to be honest, have to be courageous, have to create these environments where that can happen. And obviously that's expanded out. It's happening within your culture where you're creating accountability partners and these head heart check-ins to challenging the status quo in public.[00:43:00]

And knowing that if I swallow my words here, well, what does that say? What does my complicity say about what I wanna see in the world? And so, having the courage to lean in, how do we, how do you navigate that? How do we lean into the hard conversations? How do we navigate discomfort? How do we build accountability for ourselves and for one another in a way that is constructive, courageous, uplifting, and allows us to go there that will leave us with positive

Bradley Daye: results.

Hmm. I'm gonna go to a name that is gonna give you pause. Swizzy, um, Ben Halper, when we first started P 4g, this is a guy who's had a few big tech startups, based in New York. And, we were starting a business, so I was like, let's give Benny a call, see what his take on all of this is.

And, I remember it was really, uh, refreshing to talk [00:44:00] to Ben because he has this kind of nonchalant way of talking about things is like, yeah, just do it. It'll work. You just do it and you know, you figure it out. You learn as you go. You're not gonna know everything. I didn't know anything.

And it was just like, oh, okay, well this is like a hundred million dollar organization and, you're doing all these crazy things. And it's like, he didn't know anything when he started, so I guess it's okay to not know anything. But he put us onto a book, and it was, it's called The Lean Startup, and it's more of a tech book.

But I just, I really resonated with one of the messages in there. And really when you break it down, it, it is a, it's still a very kind of capitalist model, and it's still a very, like how to build a tech startup. But what it taught me was to embrace failure. So the big thing that I took away from that book was Fail fast and fail fast is this, you know, when we hear the words, if I tell you, Stu, [00:45:00] you're gonna fail.

That doesn't like you have a bodily response to that. Like it's not, we've been conditioned our whole lives when we're told you're gonna fail that we're gonna have a physical negative response to that. And it was one of those energies very early on that was like, we had to start to change that bodily response from this negative like, uh, kind of really shitty feeling to something that was like, we're gonna fail.

Let's get excited about that. Cuz that means we're gonna learn from that failure. And now we have a term within our organization, it's called, Hey, I had a foul. And when we as leaders show up to conversations, said say, Hey, I had a foul. Cause it's one thing to fail and learn.

It's one thing to make that something you want to see within your organization as people raising their hand and saying, Hey, I messed up. But to actually [00:46:00] exhibit it as the leaders and to show up to conversations and say, I had a foul that says, okay, well this is this. These are the people who started this thing.

This is the people who like cherish this thing and care about it. And they're the ones that are willing to also raise their hand and say, I had a foul. Because it's more about the last letter in that acronym, which is learn. It was an opportunity and. I remember I had an opportunity, there was a black as gold conference that my cousin put on, and it was for African Nova Scotian students here in the province, like high school age kids, junior high and high school age, African Nova Scotian kids.

And, we were in this room and there was a bunch of ex-athletes there who either maybe currently played professionally or what have you. And I was like, guys, I have an idea and I really hope you're on board for it, but I wanna talk about failure with these kids today. And we went around the room and I started out the, they [00:47:00] exercise by saying, you're all gonna fail.

How does that feel? And we went around the room, there's a big circle and everybody's like, I feel sad. There's all these like negative emotions that people felt. And then I had these professional athletes. Share how their biggest failures in life were their biggest opportunities, their biggest learnings, the biggest moments that they had to grow.

And then we went around the room after and I said, okay, now how do you feel when I say you're gonna fail? And they were like, excited. I feel like inspired. And I know tomorrow they're just gonna be like, I, I don't wanna fail. I still know that. Like, it's not gonna take that one interaction to change people's minds.

It's a lot of conditioning. But I say that changing the narrative around failure. And one of our behaviors that is associated to amplify is fail with courage and unwavering enthusiasm. We really try to embody that. And I think that. Reshaping of the narrative, [00:48:00] around failure has been something that has allowed us to stay humble, has allows, allowed us to stay nimble.

It allows us to encourage a culture of open communication, open dialogue. We don't sweep things under the rug. When something goes wrong, we share it, we learn from it, we move forward. So that to me, has been one of the biggest ways in which we've been able to actualize that within our organization.

Matt Thompson: It's so funny how like we are of the same brain, and I don't know why it surprises me, but I'm just, my theme this week is for these weeks is wonder. So I'm just gonna sit in wonderment at how I get to share my life with somebody who's so aligned with me in so many different ways.

But I guess the only the addition that I'd make, which is a different way of getting to the same thing, is let's go to another book quote, and let's go to another book that was really impactful in our journey. And that's the speed of trust with, uh, Stephen Covey Jr.

It inspired a behavior [00:49:00] of ours, which is leave no doubt of the integrity of your intentions. So in that masterful complex thesis of a question that you asked Swiss, you mentioned people are te like terrified. You mentioned doing so in a loving way, and I'm mentioning trust in that way because part of our mentors and partners at Imagine Ventures who founded a purpose led business school, their original purpose was to shift the collective consciousness of business from fear to trust, to love.

And I think that there's something in that is the answer to your question. Because if you can have a challenging conversation, if you can push the status quo and do so from a place where you know that you are not judging or being judged in doing so, whether that's internally or externally, because you've established that trust, because you've left no doubt of the integrity of your intentions, and in fact you're moving beyond fear, you're moving beyond trust from a.

I think that there's a ton of power and [00:50:00] there's a ton of change and impact that can happen from that space because it is not leaning into somebody's most compacted fears or feelings of self worthiness or challenge 'em in that way. It's not anything personal from that perspective.

It's all coming from a place of love and of trust. And I think that it's not a cop out answer to say that, but love is truly such a important part of all of what we do, within our organization, that coming at that place, you know, Bradley, mentioned, we work with our clients.

We say, well be your best friend and your best friend's willing to risk the friendship. And the reason for that is your best friend shares a love with you that is so impactful that it, you're able to come to that common context from that common place of understanding that nothing is personal on that front.

It's all coming from a place of love. And it's not trying to trying to minimize or bring you down because there's so much of that within the, you know, me versus them, us versus them. In our capitalist business world and all those kinds of things, but we can actually collaborate partner and do so from a place [00:51:00] where your intentions are known and are valued.

It's amazing how much you can get done in that space.

Bradley Daye: And, yeah so the word love I think it's something that I think in some, you know, where does it have a place? I was talking about fail as this thing, we need to sort of really reshape the narrative of.

I think that we should be able to love everyone, and most importantly, I think we should be able to love what we might deem our enemies and not to make our enemies, our friends, because then you just love more of your friends. But if we can love our enemies, then what we are saying truly is, what do we mean by love is that everybody belongs together. And if we don't have that kind of overarching kind of realization that everybody belongs together and you're able to love someone, even if there's a differing [00:52:00] of opinions, even if they're approaching a situation a different way, even if they have different political views. We live in this kind of rugged individualism. And, I think there's a lot of people that hate their enemies as opposed to love on them. And if you just have that simple understanding that everybody belongs together, why can't that be what we share as love? I disagree with your political stance. I disagree with the way that you're viewing the world.

I disagree with your position, but I still think that you ultimately belong in this world and we belong together as human beings. We don't need to have the separation between us. We can fundamentally disagree on everything, but still the only thing we need to agree on is that we both belong in this world.

And that's sharing love for your enemy or love for everybody. That's [00:53:00] not my idea. It was stolen from a podcast I listened to recently, which was like an Oprah podcast, and I can't remember the guy that had said it, but it's been one of those things recently that really resonated.

stu murray: Yeah, that's the truth.

I think as we start to have more expansive experiences in our lives that shatter the illusion of separation and allow us to drop into the interconnectness that is of this nature. Some can call it god, some can call it love. There's this substrate of this universe that seems to connect us all, and like you said, this idea of the enemy.

It's not about being friends with everybody and it's not about creating places where we all agree. I think there's actually tremendous value in disagreement. I think there's tremendous value in having difficult conversations with people that we don't agree with, because those could be some of the most expansive opportunities to challenge our perspectives, to make us pick up ideas and put them down and allow us to adopt new ideas that might be even more beneficial [00:54:00] for how we can move forward in the world and how we can show up for others and for ourselves.

And so I think we're in this time where judgment is this really en big energy and there's a key difference for me personally between judgment and discernment. I think discernment is extremely important, is this ability to be able to discern what is best for us to be able to discern what is best for an organization, what is best for the climate in which we're trying to create culturally and.

Judgment on the other hand is for me more of this projection of what's wrong with or a blame that's implied through. And so it's kind of discernment with an egoic lens attached to it from my delusional perspective where I see this influence that comes there. And what that comes to me at the root of that is a lack of self love.

Because if I actually genuinely reflected the places in my life where I love myself enough, and I have enough self-confidence, I'm not [00:55:00] falling into these deep patterns of judgment or othering of another person trying to remove somebody off some certain pedestal or knock them down because I'm not feeling enough in myself or confident enough in my ability to be able to love that tru.

And so if I have just discernment and enough self-confidence, I don't need to run with this whole story about somebody else or what's wrong with them, or why they need to be blamed or why they're lesser than. And so whenever we're finding we're needing to make an excuse to call somebody or something lesser than, well then maybe it's the perfect time to stop and look in the mirror and say, well, where am I not loving myself enough?

Where do I need to find more compassion for myself? And how can I use this an opportunity to see myself more clearly and actually contribute to a world where everyone does belong? Because if I do believe that, well then I better act in accordance and get off my high horse and stop [00:56:00] knocking off other people.

Matt Thompson: Hmm. And I am everyone. And everyone is me. Right? Or you have to recognize, like, I love the way that you frame. The way that I take that in is discernment is about the self and individual where judgment is a projection upon others, and that's where the difference is, right?

And I guess the root of it, the way that I would interpret it is that a judgment upon others can be based in that fear, scarcity space. Whereas though it may be scary, and I guarantee you it is to do self work, to be able to kinda lean into that discernment.

It's not rooted in fear. Fear is just, uh, occupational hazard of dealing with loving, loving the self because it's a scary thing to do. And I say this as somebody who challenges myself every, my, my purpose in life is to lead courageously toward love. And one of the hardest parts of that is to recognize that I can't do that if I don't love myself.

I can't lead towards love if I don't love myself. And there are times when I don't. And it's scary and it sucks. And[00:57:00] you really have to recognize exactly like you said. Where's that barometer? Where's that moment of reflection? And take a deep breath to look at yourself in the mirror to say, why is it that I'm feeling that way?

We like quotes and I'll throw a couple like the Walt Whitman quote, which is Be Curious, not judgmental, is one that really sticks with me. It sticks with me through the words of Ted Lasso more than well Whitman, but that's just me. And we have that conversation some other time. Just growing up the mustache.

So I can go as, as Ted again this Halloween. But the way that it really lands with me and the impactful way, that sticks with me Swiss, is, I'm sitting in the theme of wonderment and wonder for these weeks. I've got wonderment tattooed on my arm here, and there's a poem that came, into my life, when recognizing how important that word was to me.

And the last lines of the poem, kind of speak to what you're talking about there. It's a poem by Susie Kassem, and it's the more openminded we are, the more open our hearts, the more open our hearts, the more we are able to send and receive truth and true [00:58:00] unconditional. I think that's where being able to move in into discernment, being able to recognize that we can be open-minded about maybe my way of being open mind is to recognize I may disagree with you and I will start a conversation anyway.

I will not judge you because of it. I'll recognize that I may make the very same decisions that you have made in your life if I had the same context, the same situation. However, I will do so with an open mind and an open heart. And that allows for more unconditionality of that love to kinda flow both ways so that we can actually be authentic in what we're doing.


stu murray: and I felt that deeply. And I think it's the case. In order to move deeper into connection, we need to develop our capacity to separate our ideas from our identity because our ideas are so fluid and yet who we are is this unchanging essence. And there is something that is really underlying that, that connects us all.

And I pick ideas up all the time and drop them [00:59:00] down. I have some really stupid ideas and I'd tell myself, if I could talk to myself five years ago, I'd be like, man, that you should probably put that idea down. It's not helping you out. You know, like, this isn't good, but I'll probably be too stubborn in the moment to even listen to my future self sometimes.

It's just the reality, right? And so we're in a time where we are ripe for a cultural shift. We're ripe for a beautiful transition from living in scarcity, to living in a story of abundance where there genuinely is enough for all of us and there's a place for all of us to come together at the table. And I think in order to get there, a huge part of that is being able to let go of our ideas and our attachment to our ideas, even though we can have strong beliefs, but hold them loosely and remember that there's an energetic body that underpins each one of us that connects us far more deeply than the ideas that we hold.

Bradley Daye: Yes. You boun too. I am. [01:00:00] Because we are. When you said that you were gonna talk about a African proverb, I thought you were gonna say YouTu. Matt, you're super excited. No,

Matt Thompson: I was saying I was in this, I was in the very same headspace as you were. Which was uh, exactly that I just got excited cuz I recognize that there's an analogy to this picture situation, which is moving from a scarcity mindset to saying not that there's room for everybody at the table.

There's room for everybody in the. Let's not have a scarcity mindset here. Let's talk about abundance. I'm gonna flow with that one and start working that into an analogy moving forward. I just got excited so I had to

Bradley Daye: verbalize it. You know, it's been something, that is one of, I find echo's kind of greatest teachings, is that piece around not identifying with the different forms that show up for us, the different thoughts that we have, and getting [01:01:00] away from that thinking brain and more into that being.

But it's been actually something that's showed up in a lot of like our workshops with in employment. we're working with staffs and helping them dismantling their unconscious bias and you know, how do I go about having a conversation with somebody That's a hard conversation where

I've gotta challenge them on something, or I want to talk to somebody about something, or I just wanna be curious about something and I'm worried about the judgment I might face if I say something wrong in that conversation, or if I use old language that's no longer accepted. And in all of that, I'm realizing I'm in this workshop and people are kind of talking about the fear that they have around approaching this subject with people.

And it's like, oh, okay. You're all really identified with your thoughts and you feel like that, you know, one of the things that we say at the beginning of that workshop is take issue with the things that people say, not the human that they are. Like, take issue with the ideas, the thoughts, the [01:02:00] things we've all taken issue with our own thoughts and, and.

And forms and what have you. But it doesn't mean that we identify with, it doesn't mean that we take issue with the human being, the person behind it. If we can separate those two thoughts and beings, then we can be in relationship and have more dialogue and get to better places of understanding each other.

And so in a practical sense, when it comes to having a conversation about dismantling our bias and how the structural racism that exists and all of these other things within the workplace through colonial kind of landscapes and mindsets that have like really shaped our workplaces.

How do we have these hard conversations about them? It's like, well, I think this, and I think that, and there's all of the kind of thoughts and language and people identify with those so strongly. That they take offense to being challenged when their thought is challenged, when their ideas are [01:03:00] challenged, when their structures are challenged, they identify with those and they're not open to seeing it differently because it's become a part of their identity.

I think in that workshop, I was trying to encourage to that individual, you know, if you make a mistake with you, which you will, and just learn from that and keep it moving, right? Like, it's not, that mistake doesn't define you. That mistake doesn't define who you are as a person. We're quick to label things as like, you're a racist now because you said this thing.

But it doesn't define the human being that is there, unless they don't learn from it and don't change it. So that was where, what my message was like, don't continue to do the, to make the mistakes actually show that you've learned from it. Umhmm, yeah.

stu murray: Yeah, that's an important distinction of language.

Just being able to say, you know, calling somebody racist or sexist is not a constructive thing in any way, shape or form. Calling out an [01:04:00] idea because it's probably not the best idea because the idea is racist or the idea of sexist is far more constructive and it's going to be rooted in that love and the trust that you were talking about earlier.

It's like, what is my goal here? Do I want to bash somebody because I feel offended in this moment? Or do I wanna see genuine change in the world? And so the more, as an educator, I realized that at the root of all education is relationships and the deeper my relationships with my students. The more we could create a connection and a container where there was trust, where there was respect, where there was a willingness to make mistakes, where there was an opportunity to play and explore. And so if I can create these spaces where there is trust and respect underpinning these things, and I think a huge part of that is being very careful with the language that we use, how we communicate with each other, and making sure to [01:05:00] call somebody's idea out.

These things are important. There's bad ideas out there that are not contributing to a more beautiful world, but to attack and slander the individual is not constructive for anybody. It's just more division and make more people upset. And so it's very important how we do that. And I'm on that note.

Speaking of leadership being two badass men who are co-leading an amazing organization that's doing awesome things and being recognized for that. We're in a time between stories, as we've said, we're in a time between this scarcity top down, you know, an oppressive style way of living.

And we're in a time where we're shedding that skin and we are realizing that there is a place for everybody in the picture. And there's an expansive horizon about us. But we've been rearranging furniture on a Titanic for a long time, and now we're starting to take the furniture on the Titanic and make [01:06:00] life rafts and create that more beautiful world that we can shift to.

And I think within that is a real bottom up kind of way of shifting instead of a top down legislation heavy hammer. And. At the heart of that bottom up, we need the leaders. We need those who are in tilling the soil, planting the seeds, doing the work so that the rest of us can start to reap that. And then as we get these things going, we're going to actually shift that culture at a fundamental level.

But we do need those leaders, the renegades, those who are living that and willing to fall flat on their face first and get back up and keep pulling everybody up with them. And you two are clearly two men in the trenches doing that. And I'm curious to hear both of your perspectives on what leadership looks like and being both in individuals who identify as men to speak from.

What does masculine leadership look like as we move forward, as we step into this new story? What's it look like to be a man in leadership?

Matt Thompson: I [01:07:00] just watched, a version of, it's a man's World. That was very, very moving and ironically not sung by any men. And perhaps very specifically not sung by any men. I'll just say that I take a little bit. The way that I, the way that I interpret that question is less from a Titanic perspective, more from a Dontre perspective, and in the middle of reading the voyage of the Dontre to the, to, to my two boys.

So we're deep in the throws of King Caspian and Chronicles of Narnia. So reorganizing the furniture and then using the life wraps on the Dontre is where we're at. From a changing the narrative moving forward perspective. That's a really good question. I think that, where I start is, you know, we've talked a lot, we've talked a lot about love, we've talked a lot about vulnerability. We've talked a lot about collaboration. And historically and societally that tends [01:08:00] to be a lot or associated with more feminine traits. And I would suggest, based on my lived experience as somebody who, has the absolute privilege of having, incredibly important feminine role models and female role models in my life, from upbringing through now, to say that I think that the future of male leadership is feminine, and I, I don't say that lightly, and I don't say that to, to disregard it, but I think that, a lot of the reorganizing of the furniture has been Driven by ego and driven by unwillingness to waiver and unwillingness to say, Hey, this system may not be working.

Hey, this path that we're on may not be the right one. And there's a lot of male egotistical, you know, toxic masculinity associated with that. And, I think that from a path forward perspective in order to nurture and nourish, where we are right now in order to kind of create a strong foundation upon [01:09:00] which we can build, coming through and potentially in our lifetime out of these times is leaning into those traits of humility, of vulnerability, of collaboration, of looking outside of yourself and redefining What success can look like.

And then in that, not being an individualistic, but more from a community and creating the space for those around me to be their best selves kind of thing. So I guess that's kind of, I don't know, that's my unfinished kind of thought to where that is, uh, to the question that you answered the, or that you asked there.

And also just, you know, the asterisk there is that that's my truth and that's my reality. And that's something that I can speak to from my perspective. So, you might get a different answer if you talk to somebody in the cutthroat world of Wall Street or something like that.

But there's a very re real reason that I'm

Bradley Daye: not there.

yeah. I think the intersectionality of people is [01:10:00] great. When we think about one person's experience and the intersectionality of who they are, from all of the forms that we take on, there's a lot of things that are possible within that. And I think for the longest time we've said this is what it means to be a man.

And that has been a really small box, and it's been a lot of conditioning. It's been a lot of toxicity. It's an interesting subject like I think. This idea of a good man, a bad man, what a man is even has been so boxed in. And we've all, we all have parents and our parents have parents and our parents, parents had parents.

And I have this notion, or, it was something that was introduced to me by somebody on my very first retreat actually, where they were like, [01:11:00] you know, I choose to love the parts of my family that I resonate with, and I choose to let the generational curses go. And I think there are parts of what we are taught from our ancestors that are just incredibly beautiful and inspiring.

And are me and are totally me. And there are parts that I choose to let go and choose not to carry forward that generational curse. And if we think about just that from a broad perspective of what it means to be a man there's a lot of generational curses that we need to let go of that have been boxing that in to this really tiny container for a very long time.

And I think if we start to try within ourselves to just be the closest we can to our [01:12:00] authentic being than, you know, how that shows up is how it shows up. There are a lot of different traits that have made me who I am and Matt, who he is. And whether we start to label those as feminine or masculine is all a social construct.

But I think that literally when we break down kind of some of the language that we use on our websites and our opportunity briefs, it shows up as feminine language if we're to label things in that way. And I do agree. There's been a couple of things that I've been involved in that have been really fun to just imagine. One of them was this, it's an initiative by David Suzuki and they brought together people from all over Canada to talk about what Designing a new world would look like. And one of the questions in that conversation with people from just such an intersectional group, one of the questions that they [01:13:00] posed during that was just wipe away anything wipe away at all.

And, if you could just imagine if you could design a new system, a new way of being a new society, what would that look like? And if I'm living in that fantasy world, if I'm creating this thing from a place of anything is possible, one of the things that showed up for me was, and like colonize is not the right word, but what if the dominant cultures across the globe became the indigenous cultures and ways of being like, what if that.

And then fast forward to now, what would our world look like? I don't have the answers, but what if the indigenous ways of being and the ways in which we were connected to our environment, the ways in which we were connected to, the earth and the sun, and the moon and the stars, and all of the things that we really don't understand, the ways in [01:14:00] which we were all connected. What if that was the dominant culture? What if, you know, Ubuntu, what if like some of these ancient, practices became the dominant culture and colonization. Just didn't happen. And instead of it being colonization, the dominant culture, like what came into the uk, what came into other kind of Eurocentric places was the indigenous practices.

Fast forward to now, like what would it look like? And that's kind of one of those things, if I think about it from, also, from like a female perspective. What if the leaders of our world were all female from that time to now? What would this world look like? And sometimes you live in those spaces of imagining what it would be like.

So to realize that's not the reality. That's not the world we live in. That's not what this is. How do we move forward? What does tomorrow look like and what [01:15:00] does now look like? Cause often we talk about the future of work and we talk about these things as if they're aspirational. And I think our position on all of this is that it's possible right now.

Why are we waiting? Why are we trying to create the narrative of you have to wait for that future to come? And I think we've approached our internal workplace, we've approached how we talk to other organizations as, no, no, no, you can do it right now. What's stopping you? I think if we start to think about equitable prosperity, which is this word that we've thrown around now as being an aspirational thing, but also, a thing that we can aspire to achieve.

How does that become our now how does equitable prosperity become our now is like a place that we've thought about and aspire to. Create aspire to [01:16:00] inspire. Which is Jonah's purpose statement.

stu murray: I think it's important to even play with those thought ideas of what it could look like. What if indigenous ways of knowing were part of our dominant perspectives and influence how we came about? Or what if women's perspectives were more dominant? What would those things look like? And there's actually a South American prophecy that it talks about with just one wing of a bird and. It's that masculine wing and a wounded masculine wing at that. And as long as the bird only flies with one wing, it will continue to fly in circles. And so until we can develop and strengthen that other wing of the bird, the feminine wing, and heal the masculine, will we ever be able to correct our course?

And so it is to me, embracing both of those polarities. And I think there are masculine and feminine traits. I think those exist within [01:17:00] us and they can be more dominant in other individuals. I have a tendency to feel like I have some pretty fiery masculine traits of getting shit done.

But to tap into the feminine and to surround myself with that sacred feminine, as you said, Matt, to be surrounded with beautiful women who can help show me how to listen, help teach me how to hold space and to be compassionate and considerate, and most of all, with myself. And not be so self-deprecating.

I mean, being around a beautiful women, amazing women, having a partner who is rooted in her sacred feminine has changed the way I speak with myself, and I'm eternally grateful for being able to do that. And so I think there's a beauty in being able to acknowledge the polarities that we exist within and be able to step that and elevate it all.

And as you said, bday, like, what really comes through for me is that's gotta be rooted in principles and values in a way of understanding the [01:18:00] world. That is what pulls us forward. You know, if we believe that we're all interconnected and life is a gift, well let's pull on all of our skills and then some to try and act in accordance.

Because only in aligning our actions with what we know to be true, will we ever step into that more beautiful world. So yeah, I agree with you that the future is now, and it's a real, it's a real passive way to just start talking and having conferences about what the future looks like.

Like, well, what are we doing right now if we're talking about these things, how are our actions aligned with creating these aspirations that we do have? And again, clearly your company's doing amazing things to, to help thrust that forward into this more beautiful world.

Matt Thompson: I kinda wanna just have conversations where we just say things and then you summarize it because I really appreciate, that's not my favorite part of this whole thing. You take all of the words that I said and make it more

Bradley Daye: palatable. [01:19:00] Love it.

stu murray: Well, I'm just inspired, honestly, hearing you guys speak, I've got goosebumps.

It's such a, it's such a trip to circle back over 10 years from where we kicked off in such a different context in a hyper-masculine environment where we're focused solely on the outcome, where we're so driven on these particular things, where there's skills that can be developed, but just, it's a real trip to be able to circle back and revisit with you guys now in this work that you're doing and hearing some of the things you're talking about literally have been making my hair stand up and I just resonate with it so much and I've been there and I'm there right now and I'm in it.

And having these conversations are part of that. But what's true too is that everything you're saying is clearly lived and there's a sense of, when I'm hearing you guys talk, that there's something real about it. There's a rootedness to it that. [01:20:00] I can feel it beyond what you're saying in the words is it's coming through as who you are.

And it's my wish and my hope that we can continue to show up courageously with one another like this. That we can create these spaces where more people can live their message and find their

Bradley Daye: truths. Swi, can I tell you a story about Goosebumps? Bring it Baby . you mentioned, a couple times throughout the conversation that you've kinda had some goosebumps and I believe that is because you're doing what you're meant to be doing right now in this moment.

And I remember when we were working on our personal purpose and we were working on our personal values. When you're doing that work, I talked earlier about masculinity being this really small box or being a man is this really small box. And when you're going through that process of establishing your values and your purpose, you almost feel like, ah, gosh, am I boxing myself in?

Am I like creating this tiny box [01:21:00] of who I am? And now I know that it's a centering piece for me, not necessarily a limiting space. So that is, I know that now, but when I was drafting some, you know, draft purpose statements, I had written down this one and I wasn't fully sure yet.

I thought about it and, wasn't sure if it truly was something that captured what I felt was my purpose in that moment. And I'd written down connecting communities through building trust. And that was what resonated. And again, I'm gonna go back to Imaginal Ventures and the purpose led business school we were listening to Soki, who is, there was one of the facilitators from the UK that had come and was leading a session, leading a space, and she was like, I wanna tell a story about Goosebumps.

And she talked about a conference that she was at, and she had this long [01:22:00] conversation, , with an indigenous elder at this conference. And at the end of the conversation it just, it was so impactful on her and it was such a beautiful story. She was like, the hairs on my arms. She like, I have goosebumps.

Like, that was incredible. Thank you for that. And said to, you know what? Goosebumps, it's your soul connecting with your.

And when I read my purpose statement to connecting communities through building trust, I'll give a football example. The goosebump moments throughout my life, like my mind actually immediately went to what Matt and I like quote on a daily basis or weekly basis. And the rest of the team is like, I dunno what these two guys are talking about.

We're quoting, remember The Titans like every day. And there was a moment, it's my favorite movie. And you think about what that movie is about really when you think about it wasn't just about a football team. It was, you know, civil rights movement and [01:23:00] integration of schools and black and white coming together.

And there was that moment in that movie where it's like the left side strong side and the two sides in that moment, they built that connection based on trust. And that was a goosebumps moment for me, like watching that movie. And I realized that, okay, yes. This isn't a mind response to what I feel is my purpose.

This is a bodily response. I get goosebumps when those types of things happen. Another moment, I remember when I heard the news that the Mima community had formed a collective in order to purchase half of the North America's largest seafood producer. And the amount of coming together of those nations to form that collective and how much more powerful they were as a collective instead of as individual nations, was just [01:24:00] something that like immediately gave me goosebumps because that community came together.

It wasn't about One nation or the other nation, or Millbrook or it was about how can we form a collective? And through that we can do so much more. Anyway, it's those goosebumps you're having. I think it's because you're doing what you're meant to be doing right now, and you're pulling the best out of people and you're creating these conversations right now that are so impactful and important and pertinent and you're able to do it and summarize and surmise and actually feel that connection and allow for that to happen with others.

And it's your purpose. It's speaking to what you're supposed

stu murray: to be doing. Thank you, brother. I appreciate that man. Big time. It lands and I think it'll take some time to percolate and soak that in. But it does feel aligned. It does feel aligned, and it's been a courageous step to, to venture into the unknown, as you guys know and has been doing.

And it becomes just this positive feedback loop. And [01:25:00] so as we, I guess as we wrap up, I'll make sure to link in the show notes all the information to P 4G so everybody can know how to get in touch with you guys and your personal contact info if they're inspired, interested, wanna learn more, engage with you. And as we wrap up, is there anything, any last thoughts that you wanna share with listeners? This is gonna be the part one of many conversations because they'll be some addendums for sure. But as we sign off on this round one, is there any things you'd like to share with listeners?

Bradley Daye: I guess something that's been a big reminder that's changed how I show up. That I've kind of been in some ways reintroduced to, I say reintroduced. It's not like it ever left or went anywhere. But the notion of practice to me is really important. And you, it's one [01:26:00] thing to know what serves you and it's another thing to actually practice the things that serve you.

And one of those is being more than doing and we can get caught up in a space of doing things. And identify with doing of those things. And there are very, very, very few moments, you know, most humans' lives where they're truly in a place of being. And I had a few of those moments in the last week in nature in places that I can really, really block out the thinking space and just focus, not even focus, but just be a lot of, some of the things that help me do that are through breathing, getting into your body, spending time with smells, spending time with what you [01:27:00] see around you, what you hear, and not analyzing it, not thinking about it, but just being.

And so, I don't know if I was to leave. Anybody with anything in that is to just practice that more, practice those things that really serve you. Cuz sometimes we can forget how much they serve us until we practice again. And then it's like, I remember yoga for a long time was that for me, every time I'd go to yoga, which would be like six months apart from each other, I would be like, I need to go yoga more.

And it was just that reminder of those things that really serve you, like practice them, allow space for them to show up.

stu murray: I

Bradley Daye: love that.

Matt Thompson: Go out in the woods, be with nature, be yourself in nature. I think there's such a good point in there, Bradley, but being, there's a quote from John Kat Zen, which is, it's important to step out of the endless river of doing, to sit in the pool of being.[01:28:00]

We do that so often, like we're just all constantly do, do, do like, go, go, go. And there's increasingly more talk now, thankfully around, you know, how busyness is not a good thing and it can actually drive out, a lot of the good within you because, you end up with autopilot. You end up with that mind of yours taking over.

But if you give yourself a chance to be, you know, Oprah says when you start in stillness, everything that flows from that comes from a place of power. It doesn't come from a frenzied state. And if you can access that power within yourself, I think what that just quieting out the noise. Things that have been impactful for me in my life have been really leaning into mindfulness meditation, like what that means to me, what that practice is, to me, find that practice for you.

Any kind of silence, and you can find your silence through physical activity, through working out, through whatever it is that looks like for you. I think in my world it's been the conduit in which I can get to know myself and actually hear what those kind of real kind of inner [01:29:00] vibrations are as opposed to all of the noise that we're subjected to on a regular basis.

So, finding that space where you can be creating that space, exploring what that looks like. And ultimately cuz really loving yourself in that space is something that's been incredibly impactful for me. And I think that there's a lot of data that's emerging to show because, you know, in Western civilization, oftentimes we wanna find data, we wanna find proof.

It's not enough just to feel it. You actually have to have that information and stats to back it up. But create that space where you can access your power because you're most powerful in your stillness. If you can hear that inner voice,

stu murray: Amen. I fucking admire and appreciate you guys so much. I think it's amazing what you're doing in your community, the model that you're creating that can be replicated at where the value that you're providing for people. Within the province, within your own company [01:30:00] and for yourselves and for your families.

And I am blessed that we're reconnecting in this way and look forward to continuing to water that seed, go on our hiking adventures and being out in nature together growing, you know, thanks for being the leaders of that more beautiful world and bringing accountability within your lives and reflecting that to others. I'm not surprised either one of you are here, but I'm

Bradley Daye: fucking glad you are

Matt Thompson: you're doing something incredibly special with this and creating a platform for thought exploration, for feelings, exploration for new ways of doing things. You know, in that I report that Bradley referenced at the beginning, one of the lines in that was, I'll paraphrase and say, we're at a crossroads and the status quo is not an option.[01:31:00]

And I think you, through challenging of authority and through being able to be both powerful, humble, and vulnerable all at the same time, is something that is inspiring in a really big way. And being able to have this platform to amplify that message and inspire others to think differently and to throw that purpose and action is really special.

It's heartfelt. You're an incredible, genuine, authentic human being and it's really lovely to see that. And you use the term, you use the term blessing. And I was thinking, I was like what could leadership look like moving forward?

And I think there's a spiritual bent to that. There's a connectedness, bent to that as far as what we can all be moving forward. But I feel that all in you. And it's really, really special. So I take all of that very, very humbly and with a lot of gratitude and feel very grateful for that.

Um, I love you buddy.

Bradley Daye: Love you too, man. Love you. Suzy. I think, you know, you started off this conversation by saying that, when [01:32:00] people show up authentically, it allows you permission to show up as your authentic self. That's not always easy to do. I think we enter a lot of spaces where people are masking, where people are covering.

It's a privilege to show up as our authentic self. It's a privilege to show up in this way and create this space for each other.

But I very much feel at the same time that you're one of those people that when you're around, you feel like you can be anybody. It doesn't feel like you're gonna face judgment for expressing a thought or an opinion or feeling or idea that's like different or out there. And you have an energy that you give off that is like very accepting and loving and warm of like whatever somebody else wants to think or feel or express about themselves or how they wanna show up is accepted and.

stu murray: Boys, I'm gonna be moving all tender throughout my day today, . Oh shit. What a pleasure. I, I love you both so much [01:33:00] and I'm honored to call you friends. Truly love you buddy. Thanks for the chats. Love you brother.