What do you do when the belief systems of society and your personal beliefs come into conflict? How do you navigate change?
In this episode, Patrick and I explore the challenges he faced when his medical practices came into conflict with the mainstream approach. Keep in mind, you may disagree with his personal stance, and that is perfectly fine. Our differences should be celebrated - diversity makes this world beautiful and resilient. We are all human and need to remember, there is more that connects us than there is that divides us. I hope you enjoy.
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Dr. Patrick Phillips 0:00
The patient's choice is what comes first. And I'm not going to force people into something even if it's going to save their life because who cares? Sometimes you don't want to save your life. You know, like sometimes, like people want to live their life. It's not all about extending their lives.
Stuart Murray 0:21
Welcome to episode number three of the connected movement podcast. I'm your host, Stu Murray. Are you disillusioned with our outdated systems and stories? Are you tired of the growing polarization in society? So am I. My aim is to engage in and unpack conversations with people from all walks of life as a means of CO creating a way forward for humanity. Today's guest is Dr. Patrick Phillips, a family physician in Engelhardt, Ontario. After witnessing the harm of course of public health measures and the failure to provide potentially life saving COVID treatments, he decided to speak out against public health measures in Ontario. As a result, he has lost his position at his local hospital and is currently being investigated by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario. Beyond Patrick's courageous and honorable work as a physician of the people. He is also going through some massive spiritual shifts in his life that I'm really excited to share with, I want to send a big thank you to our sponsor, Karen Phytoplankton for making this show possible. All links are in the show notes and can be found at connected movement.ca. Now let's dive in. All right, so I'm with Patrick, thanks for coming on to join me. As we get started. I'm just wondering what brought you into medicine in the first place?
Dr. Patrick Phillips 1:47
Yeah, well, thanks. Thanks so much for having me on. It's kind of exciting. It's a good, that's a good question. So I come from a family actually, of doctors. So my dad was a general surgeon in a smaller town. My mom was a family doctor. No, my older brother also went into medicine. But so yeah, I guess, to be honest, I kind of went with the flow a little bit with with that. I was an undergrad, I took a business degree actually to start. And I had no idea what I wanted to do. So I kind of decided to kind of try out medicine. I mean, I I was kind of directionless at that point. But then started to look into it and and realize it's something that I really liked. Ironically, I didn't really previous to that I didn't really think about medicine that much. I wasn't that interested, my parents would talk this crazy jargon at the dinner table. And I didn't understand any of it. And so I, it wasn't a big interest of mine. I guess, seeing my older brother go into it and kind of really enjoying it. It was it was something that I guess, drew my interest. And I figured, okay, whatever, I'll just give it a trial, I'll apply to medicine, I'll see if I get in or whatever. And so, so I applied and, and I got in. And so, yeah, it wasn't something like it wasn't like a passion or something beforehand of something that I really wanted to do. But it was as I went through it, I can't say I enjoyed school that much. I kind of hated it. But I was good at it. So I just kind of went along with it. But once I actually got into medicine and practicing it, I actually really enjoyed it. I liked connecting with patients, I like solving problems. I liked learning about research and kind of applying it with the patients that I work with, and I kind of like that connection with patients and helping them through things. So that's what kind of I have to say is something that kind of grew on me, and eventually became something that I really that I really loved. I love medicine, I love practicing medicine. It's fun. And I like that connection. But it was something that I kind of grew into. And I think that's weirdly a little bit of a theme in my life and I think it will kind of come up a little bit is that I'm a bit of a shapeshifter. And I think that's something that has kind of helped me through my life. I guess it's a bit of a theme maybe that I've gone a lot of different directions like a lot. And I think that adaptability of learning about myself and gradually shedding different preconceptions about my life and what and who I am and What I what I meant to be and do, and something that's really kind of benefited me. So one step along that way was going into medicine. I, it was it was great. And so that's kind of what drew me into it, I guess to answer that question.
Stuart Murray 5:18
So you've like, how long have you been practicing medicine?
Dr. Patrick Phillips 5:22
Yeah so I did. Some originally, mostly for New Brunswick grew up, I moved to Sussex when I was around nine. And
so that's kind of like, that's where I kind of have grew up previously was in Manitoba, but then I did, I didn't. It took a stint down to the States to pursue some school thing. Well, anyway, I'll get into that later. But I did my undergrad. I guess it's st effects. And then I did med school at Dow in New Brunswick again. So that was like in St. John and Monckton, and then I decided to go into family medicine. So I went to Toronto and did two years of family medicine and, and finished that in 2018. And since then, I did mostly locums in rural Ontario, and got into family and emergency medicine in rural Ontario. So that's what brought me here to Engelhardt. I was practicing at the hospital doing doing a merge until kind of things went kind of crazy. No, no, I have a family practice here in Engelhardt since I lost my job at the hospital.
Stuart Murray 6:43
Okay, so you were at the hospital up until 2020? I would take it.
Dr. Patrick Phillips 6:50
I was at the hospital. Yeah. Until 2021. Actually till September.
Stuart Murray 6:55
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. You want to share a little bit about what happened with your experience at the hospital?
Dr. Patrick Phillips 7:03
Yeah. So. Engelhardt is a town that I was mostly doing locums. So a locum is basically where you go in and just do kind of a week on week or two of work at a hospital or in a family practice. So I started that in 2018, while living in Toronto, so I've kind of government here will pay you to fly in fly out. So it's kind of nice. While I was living downtown Toronto, would kind of work in these rural towns. And so I kind of liked that, like being downtown until kind of COVID hit. And that kind of made Toronto an awful place to be. But more on the medicine level. What I started to notice. I mean, in the beginning, I kind of bought into everything that was happening, right. So I was watching the the propaganda on TV, I was seeing people dying in the streets in Wuhan, or, or we saw the hospitals being overloaded and in New York and northern Italy. And I was kind of scared. I was kind of like, Okay, well we should lock down I was I was in favor of kind of shutting down the healthcare system for a while, up here, but then. And that was when I was kind of doing locums either here in this town, or in other towns, but I wasn't really saying much because I kind of was going along with all of it. But something started to kind of hit me I guess, in the fall when I started to see some of them like the nature consequences that were happening with the patients that I was working with, right? I start despite the fact there was pretty much no COVID in northern Ontario. We were locked as locked down as they were in downtown Toronto. And I'm like, This is not right. Like I was starting to see people coming into the emerge here or in significant, which is the other town that I was working in. With, like severe depression, even in kids, which is super rare. I saw people who hadn't seen a doctor and almost a year because they're too afraid to come in to the hospital or they couldn't or everything was done over the phone. And so they made some major diagnoses started to get missed. So like people were coming in with like metastatic cancer because they missed their cancer screenings or they or they had some back pain that was treated with morphine and then when they came in for back pain ended up being this giant tumor on their liver when I put the ultrasound on, right like if they had just been seen by a doctor you would have seen this lump right? No, it's not just back pain. So unlike this is not this is not right like this. It started to kind of eat away at me. And so I started to look into the research and everything and that's when I And that's when I started to see that things are not lining up. And that's what kind of got me to feel like I needed to say something, I guess at that point that it was. So in the middle of this actually that I decided to move to bring it back to the original question to move here to to Engelhardt, Toronto became this open air prison. Especially because with the lock downs living in a condo, downtown Toronto is just kind of awful. If you can't go out, everything is closed. But also, we wanted to kind of escape the city and, and and move up to a place where we could be closer to the land and took place. It's a little more similar to New Brunswick. So that's what brought us up to this area.
Stuart Murray 10:49
Yeah. Wow. So at the point where you noticed, things seemed a little bit fishy. Did you talk to somebody at the hospital? How did you deal with that?
Dr. Patrick Phillips 11:04
Yeah, that's a good question. Um, I think like, I remember there was kind of a moment it was it was coming to me in the fall. And I was just seeing what was happening to the world, I was seeing what was happening to Toronto. Like being completely shut down and turned into this desert of a world usually was so busy, like the economic powerhouse of Canada being literally shut down. I was seeing in my family being split apart, I saw like, like I said, we're from New Brunswick, and we used to go to New Brunswick all the time, and they close the border, you had to get a visa to like to go home, you had to like, I could travel to Mexico, I could hop on a plane in Toronto, and travel to Mexico. But you needed a visa to travel to New Brunswick. So that like that there was that that was happening. I was seeing patients being majorly harmed in the hospital, like Miss cancer diagnoses, suicidal children, like basically, we were being told to slow walk like cold blues on patients, right? So if somebody comes in, we should get like, don't try to start their heart rate away, covered them with a mat, you know, so you can protect yourselves, intubate people right away, which was something that we later found was actually harming people. I don't know just these policies in the hospital that were that were all garnered around fear and around protecting ourselves rather than what's in the best interests of patients. And it was just starting to eat away at me because I was going along with it. And meanwhile, I'm seeing on the TV, on the TV on social media advertisements from our Medical Association, the Ontario Medical Association, which is supposed to be our union, saying Ontario's doctors are calling for harsher lockdowns to protect us from COVID I'm like, You didn't ask us that. Like this is like, and meanwhile everybody believes it. Because they believe all doctors are in favor of these lockdowns that are devastating our economy, they're devastating our healthcare system. They're devastating my family, my our life, the country that I thought I used to know. And they're speaking on my behalf, like that, I support this. And I just, I just felt like I kind of hit this moment that Canada and this whole world that they were creating is just a living hell. And I don't like I couldn't live with myself basically. And unless I said something, you know what I mean? I can't like, like, this is stuff that would happen in Germany or Russia, like you think of France like pre revolution, right? Where these atrocities are happening, and nobody stands up. And so I felt in that moment that I needed to speak out to know that I at least did something. And with that, like it was scary as hell like I was kind of shaking in my boots. I knew what what could come but at the same time, with that decision came a level of peace that I hadn't felt in months or even or even more before that, that okay, this is this is my moment. This is what I'm going to do and when you take that risk you kind of given up
when you accept the consequences of that risk. That's where I found I found my peace. I guess knowing that I'm I'm going to speak out I'm going to be true to myself. I'm going to speak my truth, and come what may? It's scary. I knew at that moment meant that I could lose my medical license. I didn't walk into this blind. I didn't just think that there weren't going to be consequences to this. I, I figured the chances of me losing my license and losing my, my job at the hospital were really high. And so when I did that, I just started, I started kind of small. I started like, well, I got like a Twitter account. And so I started kind of speaking on Twitter. And then I did my first interview just before New Year's 2021. No way. 2020 I did that when good bright light news. But if you look at me on it, I'm like, I'm kind of shaking. I'm sweaty, like, like, Oh, my God, what am I doing? Right? But, but that was kind of the moment where I, I knew I needed to speak the truth. And that was very liberating. It was liberating to take that risk. It was liberating to, to speak the truth. And, and I kind of haven't really looked back. It's been kind of a wild ride since then. And life's kind of takes on this whole new trajectory. But that was kind of my moment. I did preempt things like I told I wrote a letter to the all the doctors in my hospital. But my position on vitamin D and other things like ivermectin, stuff like that. And I showed them the evidence, but I didn't really hear anything back. So there weren't really any consequences till till later on down the line. But yeah, that was kind of how it began, I guess.
Stuart Murray 16:30
Wow, I want to I want to keep going with that story. But before I'm very curious, because it seems like I mean, such courage requires a conviction in one in one's belief. So I'm curious, like, what are the key principles and values that guide the work that you do that you've undertaken in your profession? Or commitment to, to medicine? Yeah,
Dr. Patrick Phillips 16:54
um, to be honest, I think, because I do enjoy medicine, I get a lot of feedback from people that I'm a good doctor. And I know that I'm different from other doctors, and in the way that I think I approach medicine, and the way that I, I am with patients, but I think honestly, the biggest thing is that is patient's choice, right? That patient like they kind of actually drilled this to me into us, like in medical school. But I don't think everybody necessarily takes it to heart. But I've always had that approach of what the patient wants is, what is what matters the most, right? A lot of doctors will take on this very rigid view of whatever the evidence are, the guidelines say is what matters the most, right, that's the way and, and they see themselves as the expert. And it's my way or the highway. And I think that there's some truth in that approach like that, you shouldn't just do random things like that don't make any sense. Just give the patient whatever they want. But you all, but it's so important to take the patient's perspective and their values and put that first. And so in that sense, like, I understand, and I don't fight patients, I've had patients who come in having a heart attack, and they decided to go home to go feed their cows, right. And they're like, and I'm like, You're having a heart attack? Do you realize that and some people will, will fight like me, like, you can't leave, you know what I mean? You're not like, like, I'm like, now, there are people that they don't want to treat their medical conditions, and that's completely okay. And they would rather die and doing what they want. And, and they don't necessarily want to treat everything that comes through the door, or that comes up in them. And so I I'm pretty easygoing with patients. And so I think, but I've always just held that value of it's, it's the patient's choice is what comes first. And, and I'm not going to force people into something, even if it's going to save their life, because who cares? Sometimes you don't want to save your life. You know, like, sometimes, like people want to live their life. It's not all about extending their lives. And so, I think some of my experience in medicine and training like with palliative care, I've always had the philosophy with patients that it's not about extending like medicine is not about saving lives. It's not about it's not about just holding on to life at all cost, right. I see my my job too, is to use my medical knowledge to for the interests of the patient, as they see that right. So for example, a lot of patients when they're dying, they don't want to go through chemo, right? They don't like and they they don't want to hang on for dear life, so I see my job is offering patients to have a good death and a good life. You know, it's not all about just doing what the guidelines say. Because that's what, that's what what, that's what they say, right? It's not rigid like that. So I've always had that philosophy. And I think that's what made me a doctor. And it also makes it easy. Like, I'm never I'm not fighting patients ever, you know, I think that value in myself, was what really came into conflict when I started to see people being forced into medical treatments or other measures. For the greater good, or to fight some disease that was when all the while it's ruining people's lives. Right. So I'm like, this does not make sense. It goes against everything that I've stood for in medicine. Right?
Stuart Murray 20:52
Yeah, that's so interesting, like two things that come up for me there. One being being a patient on the patient side of things, I, I fundamentally believe that transparency, and feeling heard and valued is fundamental to a trusting relationship. And if I'm going to be, you know, partnering with somebody in the governance of my health, I want, I want to have trust with that person, what you just offered there, allows me to step into that, because otherwise, I'm in control of my health, I want guidance, I want support, I want to medical advice, but I want to be able to hold on to my personal bodily autonomy here. And the second piece that stood out for me that I meant that you mentioned there is this idea of preserving life at all costs. Okay, so what are we just going to shut that down the roads, and they're like, We really could we could extend life and we're gonna live in like, isolated, uncontaminated bubble of existence without interacting with any other humans in a sterile environment. Maybe, maybe we get another decade of life pulled out of that, but at what cost? At what point? Are we denying our ability to thrive as humans and to live our lives fully in this moment, there's gotta be some degree of trade off. And when that becomes something that's mandated and infringes on somebody's sovereignty to even decide that, I hear you red flags, red flags start to go off there.
Dr. Patrick Phillips 22:28
Yeah, exactly. And it becomes very real like what like what I noticed in the hospital, like before the vaccines even came out that they thing was the lock dip, right, the lock downs of the elderly, within hospitals and long term care, and the lock downs of society in general. But I can give you one example of like a 95 year old man who had no health conditions, like bass, except that he was old, you know, like he was on barely any medications, he was living at home on his own, but his mind started to go a little bit, not really bad dementia, but enough that he went out for a walk and walked back into the wrong house. And, and because of that, they're like, Okay, it's time for you to go into the hospital. But this man otherwise was shoveling his driveway was that at, at home, you know, living his own life. And he was just kind of just reached the point where he needs some help, and they didn't have enough help at home, to kind of keep them safe. So they brought him into the hospital. Because while he waited for long term care, and I can tell you within weeks, I saw a man without any health conditions, he didn't get pneumonia, I didn't have anything like that. And there was no COVID at all, in our hospital or in our area, He curled up into a ball, because he was brought into a hospital where with no visitation, no visits to his family, and loss of anything that he valued. He curled up into a ball and within a few weeks to a month, he died. And not of pneumonia, not like not something when you're 95 and you lose the will to live, you die. That is that is totally a thing. And you can ask anybody who works in a hospital or in long term care that that is that's the way it is when your body our organs tend to deteriorate with time and, and your will to live plays a major role in your ability to keep going at that point. And he's one among many write of but that one was the most blatant because usually when people die at that age, oh, you'd say oh, it was a heart attack. Like you could see this guy just curled up into a ball every day. lost anything worth living for saying that he missed his family, you know, and that was it. You know, he wanted to see his son. So like, so that was in the name of health that was in the name. Remember if you remember the propaganda at that time, it was all to save grandma save grandpa. Right from from COVID. But we literally ended people's lives and ruined their lives to save them from COVID. And you, you can't even say people from COVID Not even the vaccines work and we know that now. But like so that, like, that's what they were putting out there. And I'm like, This is not right. Like, I'm not, I can't, I can't agree with this. And that was just an in the hospital. But even outside of that I was seeing that with, with children. Like when I saw depressed children coming in, I started to ask them, Hey, what's going on in your life? Well, okay, the schools were shut down. But I found almost invariably the suicidal children, because that's a rare thing. Children are very rarely suicidal. Like, I'm talking like, from the age of eight to 13, right? It's more common in teenagers, but children, almost never. And the reason is because they they often play, they socialize, they find ways of meeting their needs, at least enough to want to stay alive, right? Like it's children don't even think of death. Like that's not a usually a thing. But almost all of it was schools got shut down. And then their family met their family. Pretty much all were following public health rules. So those children were literally locked up at home, with no friends, no play, watching screens all day. And that's, that would make anybody suicide, you know what I mean, but especially a child. Like they live for friends. Like, that's what that's like, especially when you get to the preteen years to the early teens, like, it's friends, that's what your whole life is, and you take that away, you take away their hope for the future. And that's a recipe for suicidality. But what I started seeing is, these kids were coming in on antidepressants, which we know actually increase the risk of suicidality, but I've never seen so many young people on antidepressants.
But the problem is not a lack of and like, they don't have antidepressant deficiency. They need a life. They need a life like things to live for, like community right of play. Like that's, that's what people need. And so what ends up happening when you live in fear, when you get hyper focused on on death on on some disease as and death is the worst thing that can happen to you. You ended up throwing out the baby with the bat like with the bathwater, right? Because you you throw away everything that made life worth living. So so it's it's completely insane to try to worry and, and stop a disease at all costs. Because what ends up happening is you, you might save your life, I don't think you do save your life, I think you're actually more likely to die. But but you threw away, what made your life worth living in the first place. And so that's what like, I started to see just this insanity that our society was following. And again, like it was just like I couldn't, I couldn't stand for it was like it like it was, like I said, it's the opposite of what I saw my role as a doctor to be I'm there to promote your values help you to have a good quality of life, not to force you into something to save your life. It's like no doctors are there to serve you and your interests as you see it. That's how you prevent those atrocities, right? Because like, it's, it's only up to you what's in your best interest, this whole idea of public health of the greater good is a fiction. Only you can decide and know what's best for you, right? And doctors are there to help you do that. If you want
Stuart Murray 29:03
When when you started speaking up on Twitter, putting out the videos, at what point did this start to cause friction internally? And what did that conversation look like? As you were you at the point where you were about to make a pivot where you left the hospital?
Dr. Patrick Phillips 29:21
Yeah. So I mean, I actually kept it going for quite a while I was like it was like nine months I was still at the hospital while I was speaking out and the reason is because I wasn't really working that much on the floor. i i I could mostly do practice medicine as I saw fit, right. And so I saw myself as still doing good while I was there, but But it started to create friction more externally think if there is a thing like that, but it was kind of in February that I started to get complaints into the College of Physicians. So they started investigation in February. And then there were things I guess that were my value started to, to deviate, I guess from the expected norms around COVID. And in the hospitals, that was mostly around COVID patients or when the vaccines came out, and people were asking for me to support their autonomy, right to get give them exemptions to to prevent them from being coerced into medical treatments that were clearly harmful. Or even at that time, we didn't know the safety data around them. So I still saw that as unethical. But so when that started to happen, when I was starting to offer people free and informed consent, rather than going along with coercion, that started that bothered a lot of people. So the public health officer in my area reported me to the college as well. The hospital, put my privileges on probation. That was in the summer, they kicked me out of the housing that they were offering me when I first moved here. So that started to create some friction, I guess, with career wise, and then eventually the college restricted my license. And now I'm kind of in that whole process of discipline. But that happened more towards December. But yeah, it's and to be honest, it's kind of it's kind of snowballed. But what I started to notice in myself, though, was that Yeah, I kind of woke up to all these COVID things, I started to see all these unethical things that were happening. In the government, I started to see kind of like, these things. Were not right, like, this is not okay. That was kind of my first level of awakening that way. But then I started to notice more and more experiences. Kind of like that time, you know, when I said I first decided to speak out where I was just kind of so miserable, and I was seeing so much misery and awfulness in the world that I just, I was just like, no, like, you know, and I almost moved up to another level of being like, Okay, fuck my career. I'm going to do what I think is right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna speak the truth and like, and it's not all it's not a linear thing, right? Where it's like, okay, all of a sudden, then I was like braver, to be honest. It's a it's a roller coaster, where at some times you're, you're brave, and you're kind of like, burning all the bridges behind you. And then there's other times where you like you have a complete panic attack and a freakout, like what the hell are you just like, What am I doing? Like, my whole life is falling apart like I don't know how I'm gonna pay the bills. I'm lost my whole career. Everybody thinks like, there's a media smear campaign against me, right? Like, like I was plastered across all the news, like those visits in September. Like when I first lost my job and I was I was on global news, I was on CTV I was like, Doctor spreading misinformation like it was like, it was kind of surreal. It was almost like a glitch in the Matrix. But you know, like to see yourself on all the all the news, and all the national newspapers or whatever, like, mostly should be smeared. So it wasn't nice, but it was just surreal, I guess. But. But what I started to notice was my life on one level became awful. If this continued to become awful. Like I said, like I've been smeared, have lost my job. I'm losing my license. I mean, I might keep it it's possible. But everything is just kind of snowballing on some level. But what I've found really interesting is that
every once in a while, like, as this misery I guess, compounds on this human level of my life, ironically, it allowed it's allowed it's brought me to a level of acceptance that god I've felt has actually brought me so much value right of, of kind of waking up more on a spiritual level. Like I've never seen before that that has actually brought me an incredible amount of peace. I can't say that I'm in it right now. So you get those little glimpse glimpses of bliss of feeling like okay, everything is okay. Everything is as as as it's meant to be. I am okay. And I'm always okay. Like I've, I've had the like those moments and actually get them pretty frequently. But what I've noticed is all of this chaos and misery has actually brought me to be able to reach that level. All right, a piece of, of actually, of forgiveness and of like unconditional love. Like, it's weird talking because I'm like, I'm not in it right now. But like, because like I said, I find I, you're, I'm in this. And I noticed that this is happening in the world. And then a lot of people that I talk to that it's almost as in between stage of this friction between kind of, the more you try to claim to your life and my career and money and security, it just makes you so miserable, that it's, you almost don't have a choice but to let go. And it's on that level of letting go that incredible things actually happen through you and to you. And, you know, wow, yeah,
Stuart Murray 35:47
yeah, man, that really hits home. For me, I feel that I've experienced similar ruptures in the world of education. And I know the plight, of having invested significant amounts of money into education and to thinking that this is a particular career path that requires long term dedication, which is an honorable thing for anybody to enter those professions and amount, such a high part of debt, just to be able to get in the door, and to experience a steady salary all of a sudden be cut off and be demonized for, honestly, just genuinely trying to step back and do what you think is right. And maybe it's wrong, but you're honestly trying to live with integrity within your own heart, which is, honestly the best we can ever do. Yeah. So that's a tremendously courageous, and I, I do feel also the that opening in that crack of light that can get through after in between, and through the waves of despair that continue to come as as we transition between stories, the story of scarcity and the story of separation to this deeper story that you're alluding to, and I'm wondering, for you as that crack is that Fisher has been coming down? What is starting to open up for you what what or could you elucidate on some of the changes or shifts in any way that you feel called to?
Dr. Patrick Phillips 37:15
So like, yeah, that like, I have to say, like, yeah, this whole kind of spiritual journey of kind of reaching this other level of awakening is by far, like the most rewarding thing that's happened to me, I think, in my life. And it's, I think, the only way that I can have gratitude for all the awfulness that is happening in my life, right? Because it's, yeah, where do I see my life going? I guess I don't, I don't know. And I think that that's the incredible, like, weirdly, the words, even just I don't know, is even where I find the value can be found, right? When you can let go of needing the future to be something of needing to fix the world of needing to fix your life, and realize that you're part of something much bigger like that, in its self is so valuable, right? So I mean, I guess I've had a few experiences my life and I think going back further. I think I've had spiritual, I think spiritual awakenings are something that can happen to people through their lives. My first one I would say I had was in undergrad, when I actually did magic mushrooms for the first time. And I had no idea what to expect I was just kind of with a bunch of people in undergrad and I took like, one to two or three grams, I guess the mushrooms and went on nature walk and started just to walk down, down the landing and side effects like down towards the water with a group of people and and all of a sudden, just the color started to change. And then as much as I would probably just a few kilometers from campus, I felt like I was literally like, in a completely different world. And I started to have this panic and like I'm like, Oh my God, where am I? What's happening? What's going on? I felt like like something was something was completely like I was lost like I didn't know where I was. And in that kind of chaos a little bit. I had one guy in my group who just kind of came up to me and he was like, you're okay, this is your you're okay, you're completely fine. This is I don't even remember exactly what he said. But he just basically as messaged me was like, you're okay. And it was with that, that I just kind of let go and and suddenly was kind of at peace but then I realized like, oh my god, this was like such a surreal experience, I was in the woods, but I was the woods, right? Like I was like, I could look at like a tree and just like stare at it and see like the SAP flowing through the tree or whatever but like, but what it was was just like complete presence and oneness with everything that was around me. I thought I went insane. Like it was like, it was so profound, I think I thought like, I thought I went either I, I was like, either I died. Or, I went permanently insane because you completely lose track of time, not just that time slips away, but you just you are in a permanent new place, like very much in the present moment. And, and so weirdly, I, I was completely okay with that. And it was at that moment where I accepted dying. And it was weird, it was so peaceful, I was just kind of one with all that is I was completely okay with dying. And then, and I kind of zoomed out for the rest of my life and realized how silly all these other concerns were that I had, like, oh, getting on a on my test or, or meeting this next deadline. And it's like, it was I had this kind of coming out of my consciousness to encompass kind of the whole universe and all of time. And that really made a big shift in my life at that point, and I kind of held on to that for a little while I would do other mushroom trips, or whatever. But eventually it kind of wore off. But I did feel at that moment that it took my life a little bit on an on a different trajectory. But I kind of forgot about that then went through med school, I went to residency and that wasn't really a big part of my life anymore. But I the reason I bring that up is not because I'm still doing mushrooms all the time. But actually, that same experience of oneness is what I get in those moments of letting go right of giving up on
a career on life on money on on all these kinds of concerns that on trying to survive, right. And it's that same experience actually. And and I think not again, not that I'm in it in this moment. So it's kind of like, it's hard to talking about it, it's kind of something more that you experience, but what I'm noticing is that my like, I am becoming more present, like in each one of these experiences. And weirdly, the more that I suffer and all these attachments to things that are being taken up torn away from me, and the more I let those go, the more I come back to that same space of being one with everyone of being one with with time, you know, and, and realizing that I have everything that I need, right in the here and now. You know, wow. Yeah,
Stuart Murray 43:11
it's interesting, because we've kind of got one foot in both those worlds like, whatever we want to call it, some call it God some call it spirit, some call it whatever, but almost straddling one foot in, in the realm of consciousness, and then one foot in the realm of, of the ego of identification with with the physical body, I am the body I am, you know, and then so I go and accrue all this stuff and get caught up in this materialist treadmill that that we live on. And I you know, I share similar sentiments and breakthroughs, psychologically, from having dabbled with it recreationally and having that changed my life. But these moments be them psychedelic, be them, crises be the whatever that kind of humbled the ego and allow us to see a deeper reflection of who or what we are more clearly. Yeah, it they become beacons you know, lighthouses per se, but you were still kind of out in this little rowboat. Try to navigate our way through that, as you say, you know that that fog can come in pretty heavy and hard. Yeah, right back and you just we fall into the same patterns and one other thing that came up for me there is when you start when I start to have that breakthrough or that that idea that there's something bigger than me here bigger than my little individual meatsuit that I'm that I am connected to. Yeah, intertwined with is this idea of feeling powerless be that against a global power or a government body or an employer or however that be or some other individual or thing in our lives that feels like This force that is bigger than we are. And so no matter how much strength we conjure up to push against that force, it will never be enough. Yeah, but that's, that's that old story, you know, in this in this new story, force is not required to effect that change. It's, it's that shift is the shift in intention, the shift in our actions, the shifts in our perspectives, that I find a beautiful insight while you're, you're putting a career on the line, and not even knowing what's on the other side. But having faith and having trust in that process by following your heart and what you know is right is is fucking beautiful man. And that inspires that lights something up inside of me that, you know, reminds me to dress in that same process
Dr. Patrick Phillips 45:53
there. Yeah. And it's like, and what you what you say is like, really true like that, like. And that was part of my experience with this whole COVID thing too, right of think of that feeling. Like there's these evil doers out in the world, right? And like, it's so wrong, what they're doing is so wrong. They're locking up old people. It's so wrong, that they're shutting down the economy and making children's suicidal and everything. So I, on one level, I kind of got up to that bravery rung, I'm going to fight these people, right? I'm going to, I'm going to stop them right. And so weirdly, like, again, felt like a bit of a glitch in the Matrix. I'm just a small town. Nobody doctor, right? Like I'm like, but like, but so then I got out there, I started a Twitter account and started to grow. And then it was like 54,000 followers, and like, some of them were being seen by millions of people. And it's like, whoa, like, so. But I had that idea at that same time. And I think it was, it wasn't bad to do, but I was speaking the truth. I was speaking truth to the power. And I'm like, No, fuck you guys. Like, I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna call out your propaganda. I'm gonna do all that. And so, but weirdly, that it didn't quite fit, right. It was it was not. I wouldn't say that. I regret doing anything that I did. But that sentiment of stopping them and I'm changing the world. And it did not bring me peace, you know, and it didn't. Sometimes it backfired. A lot of my complaints are around me getting overzealous, and, you know, calling out people on Twitter and things like that, like that those ended up backfiring and definitely experienced some karma for sure. Even Even if my heart on some level is in the right place, the whole idea of changing other people or like I like I need this to stop, I need COVID to end I need, you know, that was not weirdly, I very much experienced that What you resist persists, right. And I think it was interesting, because what I've noticed in the last few months, I got suspended off Twitter. And that happened is in December, when and as much as I was going inward before, I noticed very much more that I was being called inward. Even more, I lost my job in September, somewhat I went on a leave of absence and then I couldn't get my job back but but then I got on Twitter and and my life again, just just becoming more and more miserable. But on some level, but But I noticed that the call was to go to go inward. And that's where I've started to notice that real change in the world can happen. And I started reading like A Course in Miracles. So I've been doing that over the last three months, which is like incredible. It's definitely like a great course of people like to it's kind of like the shortcut to awakening, I guess. But where the emphasis very much is on forgiveness. And because if you there's no us versus them, right. So the if you feel like there's an evil doer out there, that's you all right, that's me. And, and so as long as you see them as, as an evil doer, you're not one you're not like like forgiveness is not like I hated that word because I it was it was a manipulative thing when I was a kid right? You say your story, like and, and like you have something you have to do to make up for something so that people will kind of forget about what you did or something right but that's not the forgiveness that this is. This is the forgiveness of transcending and moving to another level where there is you. You can't help but see that you there was no wrongdoing that happened there was no harm that happened to you because you move to another level where it just It's all part of what it is. It's all part of your growth and your spiritual evolution, right. And so. So that's kind of where I am now of learning that I haven't learned that. All right, like I said, I'm kind of fluctuating between like, honestly, this awful suffering a soul that is lost his career, and is no idea how I'm going to pay the bills. And I think I'm going to become homeless, right? There is this awful ego persona that I'm part of, and it's kind of a nasty person, in my mind, at least brings me a lot of misery.
But I'm seeing that start to dissolve, right? And that ego persona that sees itself as harmed like that there's these evil people at the hospital that took away my job because I spoke the truth or, or are these evil people at the college, right? Who are overstepping their boundaries and taking away patients rights since like, there's no saving that person, you know what I mean? Like, there's no like, that person will not be saved, there is not going to be some savior or some miracle in the world, that is going to fix all of this, that's, that's the perspective that I've come to. Maybe it will. But the miracle, I guess, and this is what the course in miracle is, is, is waking up to the fact that that's just a dream. Like, it doesn't matter, this ego this Patrick that has a career that got lost, that that's gonna go bankrupt and homeless, it's like that that's a fiction, you know, it's not who you are. And so when you wake up to that oneness, I guess, right, of all of that just kind of dissolves is a dream, and, and you realize you're just all part of all that is and so who cares? What happens to Patrick Patrick gonna die? You know, he will. So will you, everybody dies, right, like, and so. So I guess like, who cares? You know, you don't need to survive this, this persona actually only brings misery.
Stuart Murray 52:14
Yeah, that's phenomenal, man, like, so what personal qualities like when you find as you're going between these tension of two worlds, what personal qualities are exemplified or come up in you that you see that you recognize that you bow down to and know that will help you step into that bigger version of who you are the one that can let go with the attachment to the job or to who finds peace, amongst the chaos? What qualities are those that come out that help you deal with that, or that emerge?
Dr. Patrick Phillips 52:53
I think through my life, I've a very much had many experiences that allowed me to change who I thought I was, through, like, at many points in my life, I like growing up. I didn't feel like in my home that there was a lot of love, like, there was a lot of intergenerational trauma, there was emotional neglect a lot of chaos. And I responded to that. By becoming who I felt my parents needed me to be right. And so I created this false persona. That was who they needed to be, to keep things stable in the home or that or that I thought could prevent me from being abandoned or, or, or lose the favor of my parents, right. And so I adopted that personality of being the the grade a student, right I, my parents, I we came from a religious family. So it became very religious, and I adopted that and, and so I kind of transformed myself on some level that way and created this false persona that was not connected to me. But I did it because I thought that's what other people needed. And, and again, it may be very miserable. But I took it on to the point that I was actually super religious. I even went into the seminary to become a priest when I was 16. But but all the while I was this gay kid, right. So like, so I had that tension like through my whole life, I must have like, there must have been some soul, karmic decision right and choosing this life of conflicting, conflicting personalities or conflicting values, right. But so so that was kind of part of what happened in my life. I was like this gay kid and part of the way that I coped with that I was I was gonna become I'm super religious, and oh, I needed to hide the fact that I was gay. So I became a priest, right? Because I came from this very conservative Catholic family. And so I mean, I had tons of experience kind of becoming one thing and then becoming another right. And so eventually, yeah, that's, again drove me kind of crazy. When I was in the seminary like, this is like, I was trying to become something that I wasn't, and, and that kind of all fell apart. And then like I said, I went to university. And then I had that mushroom trip. And that was, were actually, I felt like my personality was loosening a little bit, and I could become a little bit more of who I was, and then then kind of accepted being gay. And then I started to kind of explore that, and, and then I got sucked into the whole idea of, oh, well, being gay is a big part of who I am. And so I'm in Toronto, right where I could be in like, the gay capital of Canada, right? With my, I had a like a husband. Well, no, we got married when I when I was in Toronto, but I had a boyfriend like, and so that was growth for me, right? And but then I moved to Toronto, and again, all my friends were gay and like, then I kind of just adopted that new click, I guess. But then I noticed, okay, well wait with COVID. Like, this isn't lining up, like, you know what I mean, like, and then I noticed, weirdly, that, like the gay community, if there is a community at all, very much bought into all this authoritarianism and discrimination. Everybody was completely okay with all of that. And it's like, as long as you weren't discriminated against the gays. They're perfectly okay with it. Right. So like, I was weird just to see that because it was like a leftist gay person who voted for Trudeau. Partly, I think, because he was going to legalize marijuana, I thought it was atrocious. They were that they were putting people in jail or giving them criminal record for marijuana. But then I started to see that that was being co opted in some way to promote the authoritarianism in COVID. That, because the liberal I don't know if it's because it was the Liberal government that was in power. But the leftist became these authoritarian people who wanted to take away everybody's freedom. And I was like, and that happened to the whole gay community, too. So it was like, it was so weird to see that every well everybody was about gay rights and freedom. They, all of a sudden, we're all for taking away everybody's rights and all for.
And yeah, all for discrimination and segregation, and all those things that we fought to not have happened to gay people, they were fine with it happening to the unvaccinated people. And I'm like, wait a minute. So, again, it was like, I'm like, Okay, I don't even know if I identify with this group at all right? And like, and, and kind of threw that out. And through this whole COVID thing. I mean, I do think, I don't think it's about left or right. But weirdly, I find myself on the right. Like, what, what in this? So So I the reason I brought up and kind of brought that story is that I've, I think I've had just had so many experiences of that. The more you attach yourself to some group or some sort of an identity, it, it's almost inevitable that it's going to bring you some sort of misery or it's going to bring you to some place that you're easily manipulated and, and brings you into these contradictions that don't really even make sense. So I've had that experience, I guess of I, like I said, became religious, and then it conflicted with my sexuality. And then I and then, and then I saw that I'm okay gave up my religion. And then I became like, then I started to identify maybe a little bit too much my sexuality. And then that didn't line up at all right? And then I was conflicted with my whole community. And then I got the career of medicine and when you identify with that too much, it conflicts with who you are, and, and when I really weren't none of those things. Like I think the only way to find peace is to not identify with things and to almost just let go and just be one with the flow of life. So I guess when you asked, like, what qualities do I have? I don't know. You know, like, I think it's almost like that letting go of believing anything about yourself. And just being one with The present moment and yourself is the only way that that I've found peace, I guess in my life, or that I'm on the process of finding that when I when I have found it, that's the only place that I find it. But wow, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:00:15
That's beautiful man. It's it's interesting, I think I think a large part of the polarization that we're seeing in this day and age, our inability to even have conversations or civil disagreements, and walk together towards some degree of truth that we can hold our separate beliefs, but come together with our mutual disagreements and find a way a constructive way forward that can serve everybody. It seems that identity politics and these things just become massive barriers and this attachment to this egoic attachment to wanting to be right or uplift this certain group and align everything you do. And so we start to sacrifice what, what is what our heart is telling us what you know, what you're saying there is, it's not about conforming to the ideals of whatever tribe I'm a part of. But it's that listening to that that voice or that whisper within about where I take my next step forward? Yeah. And is there any thing that you do or when you're in that right zone that helps bring clarity to what that next step forward is?
Dr. Patrick Phillips 1:01:30
Yeah, sometimes, yeah, you're right, I do feel like I'm kind of thrown into it. But more and more, I'm honing some skills that are allowing me to be able to kind of find that piece myself in a more deliberate, more consistent way. So definitely one of the biggest ones is meditation, particularly more. The technique of Dr. David Hawkins, he writes a lot of spiritual books, like, one of the main ones is kind of letting go. And that technique of, of letting go has been incredibly powerful for me, mainly, because often, we spend our life almost like Don Quixote, fighting these things outside of us that we think are causing us misery, but everything that we think is on the outside is actually on the inside. So and the way that manifests is in our feelings, right? So often, we spend so much of our lives I do at least fighting feelings, right, like, so for example, my fear of losing my job and losing my career is has nothing to do with that job or career, go get something else that'd be happy living working on a farm or, or doing whatever, maybe I'll even be happy living under a bridge. But what I'm, what I'm actually fighting is that feeling, that feeling of shame, of fear of anger, or resentment, rage, maybe towards people who took away my job or whatever, right? It's, it's actually the feeling. So if you can kind of hone in, if you think there's something on the outside that bothers you, you stop, you kind of go inside, you can maybe become witness to some of the thinking, right, because all those fears or and worries and everything are just thinking but if you can bring it to the inside to the feeling. That feeling is just almost always just trapped trauma that's in there. And so what you think you are your problems and the other side of the world are actually inside. And it's the feeling that you're avoiding. And so I'm I'm trying to fight for my job, or I'm trying to, to wake people up around COVID Not because people need to wake up or if my job needs to come back that doesn't actually need to happen like that, like, what I want is that feeling that shame about losing my job and all that stuff to be gone. And so the only way to actually get what you want is on the inside. And so this technique of letting go of just going inward, and allowing that feeling to come up without trying to change it right without trying to end it. When you can create that space in your consciousness for those feeling. You all of a sudden, don't know. You can accept all these things that are happening outside of you. If you can hold on to that feeling it actually there's a limited amount of time that it actually stays there. These feelings only plague you for the rest of your life when you resist them. When you just allow that feeling to be it it basically comes up in a wave and then goes off and then all All of a sudden, all those compulsions, or at least some of those compulsions is not all. I think that that doesn't happens at the end. But some of those compulsions, like start to go away all of a sudden, oh, I don't need that job anymore. All of a sudden in your mind, you're starts to open up to other career possibilities that come up, right? You start to possibly even get glimpses of excitement for for taking your your career in a new direction. Right? And so I guess what this letting go technique of just when you're able to, and often you need a good night's sleep you need, you can't do this all the time. Because sometimes what happens is you get trapped in it right? When the feeling feels too overwhelming. When you try to sit with it, you're like, oh, no, it's too much. Because when you sit with it, the feeling gets get, it gets more energetic, and it gets stronger. And so you need to have the capacity to tolerate it getting a little bit worse. Until it it it actually passes through. And when it does, that energy dissipates and becomes something else, right? It moves to a lighter, higher vibration. And that's probably the most beneficial technique that I've found that has allowed me to kind of move forward.
Ironically, things can sometimes get worse before they get better. So sometimes when you let things go, like you let go, like, oh, like worrying about this thing, or that thing, your psyche, or your consciousness is all of a sudden, like, Oh, you're getting good at this. Letting Go thing. Let's bring up like your worst and most awful fears. Right? And let's see how you deal with that one, right? Because that's actually where the most growth can happen. But that's where I feel like I am i right now that I've let go of so much in my life. Honestly, I've had nightmare, my worst nightmare is losing my medical license, right. So I'm still like, I'm not there yet. But I feel like what's happening in my life is happening for me to be able to let go and move to that next level. And so, so that's where that's where I feel like my growth has been. And but I still, you get those next waves of trauma coming up, right. And as they do, sometimes you get trapped in old patterns, right, and you go back into the resistance, but you've actually made a lot of progress, because you've let so much go. And you actually start to see the world start to change around you, things start to work out new, like new things start to pop up, when you realize that your problems are not out there. They're all in here. So that's that's kind of I guess that's, that's the main technique that I found, it's been the most helpful for me.
Stuart Murray 1:07:48
Wow, that's super powerful, particularly because I can tell that you're, you're genuinely living into it. There, there is an experience behind what you're saying. And an unknowing that comes out when you're when you're sharing it and based on your story, which is really beautiful, rather than just this light, fluffy, aspirational idea of what that is, but somebody who's actually in the trenches, doing that work and looking at all of these different things that one could lose. And it's interesting too, because we are so conditioned by our traumatic patterns, whether that's inherited generational trauma, or the trauma from a young age that we might not even know sitting with a set conditions all of our behaviors and as you said, to see it time and time again that come up more and more gets crazy. Yeah, meditation and mindfulness is is a huge one I love that letting go process and for me, you know the movement of the feelings yeah allows for the release of this stagnation that's beautiful, man.
Dr. Patrick Phillips 1:09:03
Yeah, yeah, it is. I mean, I have to admit like right now I'm on a I wish we should have this conversation another time when I'm like more in the like the elevated state but like because like right now I do feel like that that's kind of what happens I guess is that another feeling another thing is coming up in your life to be to be cleared out and when you are you feel like you go backwards like that's where I feel like I am right now like I'm I'm on that uptick right like and awful feelings come up and they're like so compulsive and are so nasty realize that there's so much awfulness inside and this there's this almost like a demon that like is unsatisfiable everything is wrong. Nothing is okay. And like it's it feels just so angry and sad is like and when you sit with it, it eventually starts dissolve and become something else. But when you're on that uptick, you, it's very easy to like it, because it gets worse when you sit with it, right? So it's easy to go like, when you're on that uptick of clearing something, oh, that you go back to those old patterns. And you all this resistance comes up like, No, I can't, I can't, I can't, you know, and you start to avoid it. And that's where I feel like I am today this morning, you know, but it is interesting, because you you feel sometimes even as you're progressing and evolving spiritually, that you, you are very much humbled and rubbed back down to realize your patterns and what they are, but but I think I think on some level, that's what brings me hope a little bit of even about the world because not just I see it in myself, right, that you can regress to these become this awful, nasty person. But I think what's hopeful about it is that that pattern was in me all along. But now I'm just aware of it. And I see that kind of nasty, bitter little child right, who feels unloved, and is hates everything, right. But you're now conscious of it. And so you're now conscious of that, with that which is playing in the background in my life, and and then my psyche, probably for most of my life, I'm just now aware of it. And actually, weirdly, what I found is that when you're conscious of these patterns, they don't have as much power, they actually don't create as much misery for the people around you when you're conscious of them. So as much as I've been more conscious of the awful patterns inside of me, I've noticed that my relationships are improving. Because I'm no longer unconsciously just acting those out with people. I'm now able to be aware of it and choose something new. And so I think that's created a lot of good in my life. But I also think that is also happening in the world. Because if you look at the world, it's becoming awful. Like I believe that spiritually, not just us, as individuals are always moving forward and evolving into something more positive. That's also true for the world. But what we're seeing is just the awfulness that was always there is just coming to the surface. So I think that's happening in medicine is happening in politics, it's happening in business and corporatism. Not so much that the world is actually becoming worse, we're just now becoming aware and, and they're taking off their masks and the wolves are no longer wearing their sheep's clothing. And it seems like the world is turning into this dystopian nightmare. But it's just showing that it is. And that's actually incredibly hopeful, because now people are seeing it, we're seeing that dystopian nightmare that was always there of this idea of having a career and being debt slaves, you know, to the banks, and always paying taxes and, and chasing that next paycheck, and you know, like, that would have brought misery anyway. And so what's happening is these authoritarian nightmare is now being seen. And people are seeing how awful it is. And that's offering people the chance to be like, I don't want this world, I don't want to have a digital slavery app that tells me what I can and cannot buy, you know, like, and so I think as much as I'm seeing that, in my own life of all this misery of this gunk from the basement being brought up to be cleared out. I think we're seeing that also in the world, that yeah, all this awfulness is happening. And it's probably going to get worse.
Until people wake up, not wake up that the vaccine is bad or whatever, like, I don't think we're gonna get some new prime minister, that's gonna save us. But we're gonna wake up to the fact that we are spiritual beings and like, this stuff doesn't matter. You know what I mean? We can be happy in the present moment, no matter what's going on, on the outside. And that's where peace and I think a more beautiful world can be built, not from trying to fix the outside, because what's going to happen is that's just going to get worse and worse and worse until it no longer matters. And people can realize, Oh, we don't have to follow that path. You know? I don't know. I guess that's kind of my insight or projection, I guess onto the world of what I see is happening.
Stuart Murray 1:14:32
It's truly beautiful. I think that's the perfect spot to kind of cap this off. I like to say the great reset is going to be rebranded as the Great Awakening. Yeah, and I think everything you just said really articulated that idea. Before we wrap up. Is there are you still active in the social media world or anything? Is there a place places that people could find you and your work?
Unknown Speaker 1:14:59
Um, yeah, so um, I am rarely on social media anymore. But I do have a getter account. So I think in Patrick Phillips, MD, I also have the same thing on on gab. But yeah, I got suspended off Twitter. That was kind of my main thing. And and I've kind of, I'm not on it so much anymore that I have lots of videos, I guess on different people's channels. I guess I've done interviews, and they want to see those.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:24
Okay well, I'll make sure to link to those in the show notes. Sure. Last question for you. What is your big vision to help move humanity forward? And that could be in the medical world, you could pick a particular topic, but how? How do you see building on everything you've just shared? What do you view to see humanity moving forward?
Dr. Patrick Phillips 1:15:51
I think the biggest thing is, is for people to kind of go inward to take their power back, right. And I think that can only happen when you do go inward. Meditation is not just sitting in a corner, like and, you know, quieting your mind, it's meditation is waking up to the fact that you're like this, everything is within you. Everything is within your consciousness. And so your power over the world and the world that you co create, that everybody creates, is within you. And so meditation of quieting this extract of the thinking, actually, a lot wakes people up, and allows you to create something, and allows you to bring back your power. That's kind of what that's what I've found that not only my own life, that letting go and has allowed me to kind of transform my own life, but that's what allowed me to speak out that allowed people to find out, you know, but the harms the vaccines, or whatever, but there are treatments that are available for COVID. But I do feel like going inward is the way that you can actually transform the world. Wow.
Stuart Murray 1:17:07
That's the perfect spot and to go go within so that we can reclaim our power. Beautiful, man. Thank you, Patrick, for taking the time to chat. I really appreciate it and learn lots. Thank you, sir. Yeah, feeling inspired.
Dr. Patrick Phillips 1:17:22
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. It was a pleasure talking with you.
Stuart Murray 1:17:34
Thanks for listening to this episode with Dr. Patrick Phillips. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Once again, a big thank you to our sponsor, Karen Phytoplankton and to stay up to date on new promos, events, etc. Sign up for our newsletter at connected movement.ca You can subscribe to this podcast on iTunes, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And you can also find me on Facebook and YouTube at the connected movement. Thanks again and see you next Monday.
