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Big Change through Package-Free Living W/ Kate Pepler #19

Are you passionate about deepening your connection with the environment? What does that look like for you?

There are so many ways to lean into and to heal our connection with mother nature. And in this episode, I talk with Kate Pepler from the tare shop in Dartmouth and Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Kate is on a mission to help people reduce their waste and to support local businesses in the process.

Her journey of identifying a significant challenge in our community and having the courage to create and implement a creative solution to that problem is nothing short of inspiring. I hope you enjoy.


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Stu Murray: thanks Kate for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. And look forward to hearing more about the journey that you've been on, because in checking out your website and talking to Ashley and hearing a little bit more

the last time we chatted, you've been doing some really cool things and really innovating in the environmental space. And I think that's a, a space that needs a lot of work and. As you had mentioned getting into your journey [00:01:00] you had went to do and had been interested in sustaining, uh, studying about sustainability, about environmental science.

And, you know, as you had emerged, you had felt some, some challenges within that space, but as we get into exploring that, I'm curious, like what brought you into that space in the first place?

Kate Pepler: Mm-hmm um, so I actually grew up in Toronto on Toronto island, which is a small island, uh, just a 10 minute ferry ride from downtown Toronto.

So there was like a cool, there's a cool Jux juxtaposition of nature and park versus the big city. And like, you can see the whole. and most of the island is, uh, park. So park land. Um, so I spent a lot of time, playing in and on the water, playing in, playing in the fields in the, running around through the trees, uh, the school that I went to there that goes up to grade six.

And then you go to the city, until my last year didn't have a play structure. As in the playground, it was just like, we play [00:02:00] soccer and build forts, and play side. So I feel like I've always been pretty connected and loved being outside and loved the environment. But I remember even as a kid, always seeing garbage on the beaches, and like, especially like plastic tampon, applicators, and just like being like, I guess there's a lot of women on boats with periods, not putting together that the garbage on the beaches in the water doesn't come from boats necessarily.

It mostly comes from the land. Um, and then through, through schooling, I did a lot of, um, canoe tripping and camping. So again, like connected to nature and being outside. And when I was, when it was time to look for universities, I'd only ever wanted to go to, um, UBC because of its proximity to Whistler and other extracurriculars.

And I had a friend who was out here already and he was like, you have to check in the sustainability program. Like, I think you love it. And reading the sustainability program at Dal's, Like, uh, description. I was like, this actually sounds like something I would [00:03:00] want to study for four years instead of just doing a general bachelor of arts.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it like made me excited reading, reading it. And, um, the sustainability program at Dal, you have to do it as a double major. So it already forces you to be interdisciplinary. so I did sustainability in environmental science and then I did a, uh, semester in Haida Gwaii, BC.

Um, and after being in Haua I declared, Marine biology as my minor.

Stu Murray: Hmm. Interesting. So you had some experiences around canoeing and outdoor excursion in your public school.

Kate Pepler: Through summer camps. Um, my parents both loved camping, so we did a lot family camping. Um, we'd go up to, parks in, in Ontario and go go camping family.

Stu Murray: Ah, nice. That's that's very fortunate to have exposure to those. I was wondering too, like maybe it was an, a pursuits class or maybe you just [00:04:00] had an awesome school. That's like, all right, we're going out and, and learning through this need.

Kate Pepler: Yeah. There is actually quite a few outdoor ed programs through the public system in Toronto.

So I did do, um, the island school on the island that, um, only goes up to grade six, um, is actually, uh, a science school as well. So kids from the city come and do, I think it's two nights there. So they do two nights do a lot of. Learning and, and walking around and looking at the plants and all that sort of stuff.

So we did that as well. And then we also did one, I think it was called Sheldon, outside of the city. So we went away for, for two nights.

Stu Murray: Super cool. And something caught my ear. As you were talking about your experience, like leading you out towards Dal the, the other coast, the, the more forgotten about coast mm-hmm , but not, not one to forget, just don't tell too many people

But as you were talking about that, you had mentioned the word interdisciplinary and I'm, I'm wondering, you know, why that was [00:05:00] maybe something of interest or something of importance to you.

Kate Pepler: Yeah. I think like through even just like so much of our society is so can be so narrow minded, um, or one sided. Um, so the thought of having to do like a double major, um, and focus on, on two different disciplines and my disciplines ended up being quite similar with sustainability and environmental science.

But, um, I think I got a lot broader perspective than had I just done environmental science. so yeah, I think when you, like, just like with any issue, there's more than more than one side. And like, like in healthcare, even like if you just look at why you're hip hurts and you just stretch your hip, you're not gonna get to the, get to the root of it necessarily.

There's likely likely more things going on, um, and things causing that

Stu Murray: pain. Mm. Yeah. Isn't that true? And I, I think that's actually at the heart of that is some really big lessons for us in society where like, We [00:06:00] seem to have inherited this really pathological approach to finding solutions. Like you've kind of highlighted be that in healthcare, be that in environment, be that in, in governmental or bureaucratic solutions, like we're seeking out this dogmatic, linear pathway as far as where a solution might be found.

And I think what I've learned in, in my education is really, yeah. The parts. The more we can understand the little piecemeal aspects of this is, is very important and useful, but that has to be complimented by a holistic bird's eye view perspective that the real magic isn't in the memorization and the regurgitation or understanding of any particular dogmatic pathway, but really can I then step back and be able to pull us train through all of these things and, and understand the, the forest for the trees, so to speak.


Kate Pepler: Yeah. You have to look at the big picture and understand how everything ties together. You can't look at, uh, [00:07:00] sustainability and just treat it as an environmental problem. It's also a social problem, a racial problem. there's so many things coming into play there.

Stu Murray: Totally. And did you start in that interdisciplinary work?

Did you start to have the, that kind of enlightening realization as you were going through it? Or did you already start to think in such a way prior to like, was there a shift that started to happen there or.

Kate Pepler: Yeah, I don't think I was really understanding of it all prior to school and my knowledge of it has definitely deepened post postgraduation.

And like, as I'm continuing to learn on my own. Um, but I could definitely, like, it was really cool doing a double major and a minor, these three different courses and how they would all, um, be super, super related. So I think like, it definitely started like planted those seeds for me in schooling. And then that's only just, just grown, since.

Stu Murray: Cool. And [00:08:00] as you had emerged from this, a lot of, I found a lot of, uh, students that I went to school with. And a lot of young people in general kind of emerge and see the world with these rose tinted glasses. And that it's, this world is wonderful and which it is we, we live in this fantastical beautiful world, but as we start to get exposed to these challenges as well, there's the other side of that, where it's, you know, This world is so much bigger than me.

These challenges, these wicked problems that we're facing, almost become overwhelming. And you had mentioned, as you had graduated, you had mentioned this feeling of hopelessness, um, the political challenges, the environmental issues. Could you speak a little bit more to, what kind of came up to you as you were doing your studies?


Kate Pepler: I would say I definitely did not graduate with rose colored classes, anything I graduated with gray storm cloud [00:09:00] um, yeah, I feel like after, so my degree it was really great, but it did really focus, um, on the negative and the, and gloom. And I felt like I didn't really learn. What I could do to make a difference or how anybody could make a difference.

It felt like we didn't have many like case studies of all of the incredible work that is currently happening and has been happening for, for centuries by, um, by the folks on the front lines. And, so after graduation, I was really overwhelmed, and like depressed about the state of the world. It was also the year Trump got elected and was also in the news that the great barrier reef was dead.

And there was all of these just like harsh doom, and gloom things happening in the, in the world. So it. Yeah. And now looking back, I can recognize that that was like a term that's kind of new, I think, called eco depression. and for me, at least when I just hear all of the doom and gloom, I want to, like my apathy turns on, I just wanna [00:10:00] bury my head in the sand, like turn on Netflix, like ignore everything.

And like, I'm not inspired, but when I read about other people doing inspiring things, that's what really lights my fire, um, and inspires me. So after graduation and it kind of did start, through my last year of university, um, I started a website called our positive planet, um, that was sharing environmental success stories to inspire action.

And that was like really just for my mental health to like help


it was through our positive planet that I started reading about the zero waste [00:11:00] movement and zero waste stores popping up all over the world. And I started trying to reduce my own waste and it was really hard to do in Halifax. There was no more that made it easy, accessible, affordable.

Um, and I was teaching sailings in the summer and, um, pretty much unemployed throughout the winter. So in the winters, I had a lot of time to run around many different grocery stores. I spent a lot of time driving around to different grocery stores, which is unsustainable for like gas reasons, but also like lifestyle.

You can't drive around all the time. Um, but I was driving around to try to find different things package. Um, and it, yeah, it was really hard, really time consuming, not a, a realistic lifestyle, um, in the long run. Um, so I kind of had the idea to open a store. It was like, Halifax needs this. Um, and nobody else it wasn't, it wasn't happening. So I thought like, I, this is something I could do. And then I was like, wait, I can't do that. I didn't go to business school. I don't know how to business. Who do I think I am to try to do this? so I went [00:12:00] back, I did a lot of back and forth, talked to a lot of other business owners and found out that you don't need a business degree to open a business.

And even if you did go to business school, there's a lot of learning on the, on job anyways. So eventually flip that from why not, why we need to, why not me?

Stu Murray: I love that question and I, I think that's so much. The way to get down to the root of that eco depression or eco anxiety, I've, I've spent the last six years working in education.

Uh, I'm very passionate about the sustainability and ecology aspect of that. And, but you have to be wary when you work with kids in particular who are extremely sensitive. I mean, we all are, but we've have our ways to, to harden ourselves over the years, but eco anxiety, eco depression are these new terms.

And they're one of the things that our children are struggling with the most and what I've found to be the greatest antidote to that is the, so what is the action piece, right? And so when we're paralyzed by [00:13:00] the grander of, of these wicked problems that are so much bigger than us and so interconnected and so intense, we can be ground down to inaction and to this paralysis, or you would say that this apathy, that kind of takes hold of us and, you know, finding.

Others who are doing that, or even better taking that action in and of ourselves to just do that little bit of change, to, to affect that little piece can pull us out of this deep, dark cave that can set us on this journey of inspired action and connect us with so many different people. And I want to get down into, you know, your discovery of the zero waste movement and what you've been doing even more so recently, which is heroic.

I would call it nothing short of such, but this, uh, our positive planet, like where did that come from? Was that a school project? You just, you did this while you were in school. Just what, what was the inspiration there? Like where did that

Kate Pepler: [00:14:00] come? I mean, yeah, I started it at the end of my degree. Probably I think I started writing blogs, so I was just literally just like finding a positive news story, summarizing it, linking it, posting it, um, and eventually it evolved to a little bit more. But I posted on, um, Greenworks that I was looking for guest blog writers. And at one point I hit 50 writers, I think from like all over the world who were contributing to these positive stories. So it was, it was really cool to see like literally right away, this really resonated with people from literally around the globe.

And yeah, I honestly just started it cuz I was like, I need to remind myself that there is positivity in the world and I need to, pull myself out of this, and get inspired and, and find the, find the happiness in the world.

Stu Murray: Wow, good on you. I mean, that's a, not only a Testament to the self starting and the ability to overcome our apathy and these ideas that these things are too big for us, but [00:15:00] also really highlights the idea of collaboration and, and reaching out.

It was like, wow, I'm not alone. I'm not the only one who feels this way. I'm not the only one who feels overwhelmed and I don't even have to do this alone.

Kate Pepler: Totally. Yeah. And like, I felt in my eco depression, anxiety, like I felt very alone in it. I was like, like, I'm the only one I leave my leave lectures.

And I was like, crying. Like what the fuck is the point? horrible. Like we're just messing everything up. And so yeah, when I posted that, uh, guest blog writing, um, and like instantly had so many people contributing, I was like, okay, there's other people feeling this we're not alone. Um, and like reading about other cool stories from all over was really

Stu Murray: cool.

Yeah, I think there's something about that. That I've been really meditating on the power of story mm-hmm and how much that can inspire us. And I think that's where that's [00:16:00] where the nugget of, of change is really gonna come from is not. And I, I think it's really well intentioned where we're at societally, where we wanna mandate a certain change or put down a, a top down policy.

And we're thinking that's really where it's gonna come from. Actually, I remember in, in my environmental seminar classes, I was doing my honors research. We had 12 students in our class at the end, and, uh, the, we had studied, you know, the melting of the ice sheets and the rising water and the amount of species lost that we're facing.

And the, you know, just one after the next, after the next, for like four months, it's like, stop, stop. I can't take it anymore. At the very end of that class, we had just had a sit down chat and I think we brought some food in, you know, and made it pretty casual. But the teacher left us with this question.

She said, is, how are we gonna do something about this? Is this, is it a way, is it going to come down from the top? Or is this something that we can, you know, stimulate from within us and bring about [00:17:00] that change? And all 11 of my fellow classmates were, were very firm on their stance. That the only way we can do this is through policy and through top down reform.

And it just didn't, even at that time, it didn't sit right. It's like, I'm not disagreeing with that, but where does anything, where does any good policy come from is an idea. That an individual that a collective hole and that believe in, and that just set me off on this journey of exactly what you're talking about.

It's like, I need to, as cliche as it is, I need to be that change. Yeah. If I want to be inspired, if I want to provide an aspiration for others to, to lean into, then I need to go and provide those seeds. And who knows what kind of trees will emerge from that seed, but it has to come from aligned action.

Kate Pepler: Absolutely. Yeah. And nothing is gonna happen unless like no government is gonna make policy, unless there is that public pressure, which comes from all of us speaking up and, and,[00:18:00] fighting for what we believe in.

Stu Murray: Totally. And, and beyond that, this other term that I've learned about recently is called parallel structures.

Mm-hmm . And so that's very much like what you're doing now, and that actually emerged out of the. The strong force of communism that was running through Europe and, uh, you know, Soviet Russia at the time. And this guy named Vaclav Havel, who was from the Czech Republic under the repression of the Soviet union, had really meditated on the idea of love and creating movements out of love.

And what he said is what we really need is to create these parallel structures that can operate even under these confines of the existing structures we have, but are rooted in solid core values and, and really meditated upon. And, and that is so much of like, I think the real changes it's like, you're still at the leading edge of what you're doing with this zero waste movement.

And the initiative with the tear shop at, in [00:19:00] Halifax is you've you are creating a parallel structure and you are creating the inspiration and aspiration that we can step into and say, wow, that. You know, I, I just read your impact report and I wanna dive into that as we go, but man, like that is inspiring stuff.

Kate Pepler: It's so cool to be able to take. Like that was just one year to be able to take what we did in one year, a really hard year with COVID and lockdowns. Um, and the impact that we had, it's super motivating for myself, for my team, um, for the customers, it's a really good, like can help pull the community and customers out of that.

Like apathy, I think we're again, like coming back to that, like the last two and a half years with COVID and, um, everything else has been a lot. So I think a lot of people are stuck in that apathy and, and struggling to, to find a reason to do anything. Um, so even like something as simple as an impact report has been really helpful in, in that.[00:20:00]

Stu Murray: Ah, I'm, I'm so happy to hear that. You know, it's, it's very interesting. So you started this website, you started pulling in people from all around and it emerged from this place of not knowing what to do, but you just did the thing that you felt called to that one. Small action. I'll start a blog. Like I'll start this.

Yeah. This one little piece, right. And it'd be easy to have that monkey mind say, well, what's that going to do to stop climate change? What's that going? What's that gonna do to clean up all these tampons on this beach here? I'm not exactly so, but that that's, you started. And then that inspiration became this pull that pulled you in and all of a sudden you started to learn about the zero waste movement.

And I mean, could you explain a little bit more about what the zero waste movement is for, for those listening and who might not be as familiar with it? Yeah,

Kate Pepler: I think my understanding. Of it, or my like perception of it all has changed, evolved so much. Um, so at the beginning I was so hard on myself. I was so strict.

[00:21:00] Like I would get so mad at myself if I messed up and like ate some or yeah. Bought something without, um, you know, packaging. And I definitely didn't do it in a way that was good for my mental health. And I thought it was really. And it is like individual action does add up and it does make a difference.

But it goes so much beyond that too. Um, so it's really important to, again, look at these things from like a holistic, um, holistic point of view and take into all pieces of the puzzle. So, and like, ultimately there's no such thing as your waste, it's a good goal. That everything creates waste even like our bowel movements and, and urine movements.

Like there's nothing that truly is your waste. But it's all about just doing what you can to reduce your waste. So I used to come from it from a really, really strict mindset. Like if I'm not doing this perfectly, um, then failing, which isn't true. You, yeah, we just need to all do what we can and that will probably evolve and change as your lifestyle evolves and change.

Maybe you go from [00:22:00] having no kids to having kids. So again, you'll have some lifestyle changes. Have some lifestyle changes in your home. And it's okay that it can be a journey and, and, and evolve. So I don't live a zero waste lifestyle anymore. I live a low waste lifestyle. So I have like, even when I was living like a zero waste lifestyle that doesn't take into all of the waste, um, like the medical waste, whenever I give I've given some, like a lot of talks and I've had quite a few people come up to me after the talks and like whisper, like what about like condoms?

It's like, yes, safe sex is more sustainable than having an unplanned pregnancy or an STI use condoms folks. Um, so like there's no medical waste in my like trash jar. Um, I had a dog, the dog food bag wouldn't fit into the jar. Um, so there was a lot of things, um, and none of the waste upstream. So the upstream waste is anything that's created before the product gets to your household.[00:23:00]

Um, so yeah, now, now we do what we can, where we can, uh, to reduce our waste and try to come from it from a more like healthy mindset of the mess up sometimes. That's okay. It doesn't matter if you buy cheese in a, in plastic, you're doing something else.

Stu Murray: I think that's such an important point, Kate, that I, you talked about perfection and I think perfection for so much of us is a barrier to action.

If I can't do this perfectly, if I'm not good enough at this, or I'm not gonna be able to nail this 100% like that person does well, then I shouldn't even bother. Yeah. Right. And, and just the amount of times we hold ourselves back from just being messy in the process and, and diving and doing something.

And I, I particularly like your non-dogmatic approach to just like feeling it. Getting weird with it getting messy, right? Yeah. You know, doing good sometimes and learning from the times where we don't and, and really just. [00:24:00] Leaning into the discomfort of what that feels like pulling out all the juicy lessons and yeah, no, no doubt becoming a better human for that.

And that's whether that's our diets, like I find there's so much dogma in the way the, the kinds of food we eat. And so we're in arguments about being vegan or this, or being no, no, like that's actually blocking connection and blocking inspiration where, you know, it's like the inspiration that I see from you is just, I'm just trying to do my best.

Kate Pepler: Yeah. That's all we, nobody's perfect. Nobody's perfect. And we can, there's all stuff that we can do and you don't have to be, you don't have to do all those things all the time. Um, but again, there's just little things that we can all do that do make a difference and do add up. And I think that, yeah, that perfection or feeling that you have to be perfect is a big barrier for people to even try to start.

Cause they're like, well, I'm not gonna do, I can't get like all of my groceries package free. So what's the point. Um, but. Starts small and as, because it's habit and [00:25:00] gets, um, embedded in your routines and you can build from them. Um, yeah.

Stu Murray: Did you have any kind of shift in your self talk or any like any big shifts at all?

I guess that started to come through as you moved away from that per perfection kind of lens and gave yourself more grace in the process?

Kate Pepler: I think so. Um, like I was like, so stressed about it all the time. Like even, um, like if I friend like handed me their disposable coffee cup to hold for a bit, I'd be like, I can't touch that.

Like, oh my God, like, people are gonna like, be like, oh my God, cake cup, the worlds holding. Yeah. Disposable coffee cup, like she's full of it. Like she doesn't, Preact what she preaches. Um, so I was like very hard on myself. Um, and. Yeah, like lost some of the joy in it even. Um, but now there's still things like, I still don't buy coffee if, if I don't have my trouble, like, or can sit down.

Um, but like if a friend asked me to hold their cup, I'm not gonna like, get weird about it. [00:26:00] Um and yeah. So I think, yeah, just like my mental health overall has improved so much. Um, even like, like within my relationship, um, just like my partner for when we first moved in together was like nervous to buy like sandwich meat in a plastic bag or like milk or whatever it was.

Cuz I don't wouldn't have bought that stuff for myself prior to us moving in. Um, I was like, you have to eat and you have to take care of yourself. So like it's okay. Um, and just, yeah. Did that like again, the lifestyle change of readjusting, um, moving in with a partner.

Stu Murray: Yeah. Those are some big shifts and I, I think life is messy.

And I mean, look at, look at nature, right? There's gonna be rocks in the way there's boulders and the root still finds a way around. It just could kind of carves its way up or the riverbank, right. It's like, oh, can't go there where it flows. It just flows with it. And it finds a way. And I think, man, I need to be more graceful with [00:27:00] myself on that.


Kate Pepler: hard. It's hard. Yeah.

Stu Murray: Yeah. So you had been practicing the zero or, I mean, did you get down to zero waste?

Kate Pepler: Um, like again, like I had a trash jar, um, that was like all my trash from a year or whatever, but it wasn't the whole picture. There was no again, no medical waste. Um, none of my dogs waste like the, even the food bags.

Um, obviously no poop bags cause that's gross. Um, so like I had a trash jar, um, but it's not the whole picture. So I was like, I was, I did really good, like did really good. I'm still doing really good. Now it just looks a little

Stu Murray: bit different. That's phenomenal. So pretty much down to, to one jar plus or minus these.

Yeah. These other purchases is, is profound. And so you'd been doing that for a period of time in Halifax. Yeah. And then like what, what came about? Cause [00:28:00] were you feeling like how was that with the stores that you were going to were, were they able to help facilitate that process or did those actually impose more barriers?

Kate Pepler: I wouldn't. If I went to a store, like with that had a bulk section, I wouldn't ask to fill up my own containers. I would just, I had a lot of cloth bags, so I would just fill up my bulk, my container, my bags with the products, um, and like eat the cost of the bag. Um, now a lot of those places that I have been going to do have, um, a reusable container programs.

Um, so yeah, I wouldn't ask for permission. I wouldn't just go up with my stuff and my bags, um, that kind of girl and like I would buy cheese and like from the deli counter and get them to put it in my container. I feel like a lot of that stuff is harder now with, with COVID and regulations or stores, regulations haven't changed.

Um, but like, I just like go in and like act with confidence and be like, yeah, I do this all the time. It's okay. [00:29:00] Um, So, yeah, it was like interesting to try to like, navigate that, um, or like getting food in to go and like at my own reasonable containers, um, if I ever felt embarrassed about doing that, I would just get my like pad tie for, for there and just like dumped in my container and, and go, and they'd like, come back and be like, you ate that in like a second.

Like, are you okay? um, so there's ways around, around, um, doing that.

Stu Murray: I like it getting creative where you had to. Yeah. Yeah. So was that part of the inspiration then, like, as you were navigating and finding these different challenges and getting creative and asking for forgiveness rather than for permission, I think that's a huge, a huge thing that can help a lot of us move these things forward, because you're gonna get, you're gonna run into everybody.

Who's gonna tell you why you can't, but just finding those ways. So you started. Overcoming these barriers and [00:30:00] creative ways, but there was still a lot of barriers to overcome. Yeah.

Kate Pepler: And there was a lot of things that I was, because I couldn't find it without packaging. I just wouldn't eat it. So I was very, it was very restrictive.

Um, and it was like, I was driving around again, like to so many different places, trying to find different things from different stores without, or with as little packaging as possible. So that's kind of like what sparked the idea is like there should be a store like this in Halifax. It is like a one stop shop.

It makes it that's, its whole purpose is to make it easy, make it accessible to folks. So yeah, that like that seed started for me. And then after like a lot of self doubt, finally decided to do it. So we announced the business in 2018, um, in January of 2018, and opened in October of 2018. So almost four years ago now.

Stu Murray: That's huge. Yeah. So what how'd you overcome that self doubt through?

Kate Pepler: Yeah. I talked to a lot of other [00:31:00] entrepreneurs, um, realized that you just have to go for it. If you have an idea that you're passionate about. Um, that passion is gonna show up in and your work and what you do. Um, and after announcing the business in January, it felt like I was like the only one in Nova Scotia trying to live low waste lifestyle.

But like, we got a huge amount of following, like right off the bat. Um, and a lot of messages from, and emails from people saying that they were also trying to live, um, a lower waste lifestyle. But again, it was also so hard for them cuz there was nowhere for them to go. So it felt like right away there was this community.

Um, and instantly I was like, okay, this is the right decision. I'm gonna keep going for it. Um, but it was so scary cuz when Sue put something like that out there, you don't have to follow through, but you can't take it back. Um, so that was really scary to do. Um, but obviously grateful that I did.

Stu Murray: Terrifying thing.

It's, it's always so vulnerable to yeah. To be that [00:32:00] person, to put yourself out there. And the mind's so good at carving the what ifs or if I fail and just painting ourselves with all of these, these negative brushes that yeah. You know, and even other people on the outside wouldn't be, if somebody's judging us, it's likely more of a reflection of their own insecurity, then it , you know, so like that's where, that's where that judgment comes hard on us.

Like where I'm really insecure is where I'm going to judge myself the most.

Kate Pepler: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Even like at the beginning I was like, so self-conscious of it. Um, I was out with a friend once in my, somebody asked what I did and I was like, oh, I work at the tear shop. And she's like, you don't work at it.

You own it.

Stu Murray: yeah, totally downplaying it. Eh, yeah. That's yeah. That's, it's part of that journey of. Of owning it and stepping into it. But I think it is just that it's a journey and, uh, life, life will offer us this. It's like a [00:33:00] positive feedback cycle. Okay. I was vulnerable here. I put myself out and, and this thing came back and by no means, is it like this beautiful fairy tale journey all the time, but man, is it ever juicy and so full of aliveness

Kate Pepler: yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And so many lessons, um, I've grown so much to learn so much. Um, and I'm so grateful. It's been really, really hard. Um, but I'm grateful for the journey.

Stu Murray: So when you started it, was it just you, as you, as you got it,

Kate Pepler: Yeah, so I started it. Um, so I'm the, I'm the founder. I don't have a co-founder. Um, so I started it and we started, I started doing, um, popups.

Um, so I did a lot at do, um, and did some at like a bunch of other local businesses and I bought lifestyle products, like the toothbrushes and shampoo bars and all that, um, like non-food product stuff. Um, just to start spreading the word about [00:34:00] what the store would be, um, and starting, yeah. Starting to meet the customers and, and start to build that community before we had the brick and mortar open.

Um, and then when we opened the first door in October, I had hired, uh, I think four staff initially. Um, and I was working on the floor like six days a week, um, with the, with the team. Um, it was exhausting, but it was, it was wonderful. Yeah.

Stu Murray: Yeah. Wow. That's a huge launch to get going. And from going from nothing, from an idea to having a team of four that you're working with, that must have been quite a change.

Kate Pepler: Yeah. And even like, it's even just like a logistical thing. Like we opt, we don't really have people working alone. Cause if you need to restock, cuz we have everything in jars, so you have to restock fairly often. Um, but so if you run outta flour and somebody else needs flour and you're alone, you can't go, you can't go restock alone.

Um, so yeah, we've always had two people on most of the [00:35:00] time, um, which has mean having a lot of staff.

Stu Murray: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. So how, how have you been doing navigating being the leader of a team? Like how, how have you been, what skills have you learned in helping to create positive team dynamics?

Kate Pepler: Yeah, I think the biggest thing I've learned is putting the trust in your team.

Um, cuz all of that like micromanaging, um, burnout, I think ultimately also comes from not trusting your team. Um, like if I don't trust the team to hold down the Fort on the weekends and evenings and when I'm not there, then I'm gonna be there all the time, checking in on them or doing it myself. Um, which isn't sustainable for me.

Um, I learned, I've learned the burner lesson too many times, so I think a big part of it just comes down to, to trust. Um, so really learning to [00:36:00] trust the team, um, and allow them to make decisions whether it's what I would do or, um, not maybe, maybe not how I would say it, but still gets the point across. Um, I think that's really, really, I.

One of the biggest lessons I've learned,

Stu Murray: that's a, that's an important lesson. And I think that one carries well into life. Like I, I think we, we really need to redesign societal structures that are rooted in trust. It's a Taoist principle, but it's like trust people and they become trustworthy.

Mm. And if we can create a container for our relationships that are rooted in trust, we actually can pull that out. We live in a society that actually doesn't give one another the benefit of the doubt. Yeah. And so we're, we're always hesitant and skeptical about who we open up to. And I think there's, I think there's merit in that as.

Yeah, but we err, we err on that side of, of really not trusting those around us. And so we live in a, a culture that's scared of, [00:37:00] of our neighbors and it seems like the wrong foot to be putting forward in our relationships. Yeah.

Kate Pepler: Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's been, yeah. And it's a hard lesson to learn. Like the, the hair shop is my baby.

Um, you know, and to, to be able to like walk away, um, and like not check in with the team all the time and just let them do their thing. Um, give them tasks to do, um, cause they wanna help out. Um, it's been a, a good lesson. Um, I think I've gotten a lot better at it than when we

Stu Murray: first, so you were two years in and then all of a sudden you ended up being a business owner during a global pandemic.

Yeah. What was that experience like? Horrible.

Kate Pepler: Just like for so many others. Um, yeah, at the beginning, everything was so scary and so unknown. Um, so I let go all of my staff so that they could [00:38:00] collect, serve. Um, and we closed for two weeks at the beginning. Uh, we weren't mandated too. We were grocery stores so we could stay open.

Um, but we closed for two weeks at the beginning and I think I spent a week crying in bed and then the next week, like, okay, what am I gonna do? Um, how can I still serve the community? Um, so I opened, um, it was just myself for, until maybe may or June. Um, I think may it was just myself working. Um, so I was just doing shopping by appointments.

So people would select time to come in. I would do all the shopping for them. Um, so there was only me touching things cuz and at the beginning, like I would wearing gloves, not a mask, we just knew so little about, about COVID um, But yeah, it was really, really draining, really exhausting. And then as staff were comfortable coming back first, we had somebody come back and they were just doing the back of head stuff.

So helping me restock and clean, um, and not customer [00:39:00] facing. And then as other people got more comfortable, um, they, they rejoined the team and then eventually we reopened again June or July.

Stu Murray: Wow. Yeah. That must have been a real challenging journey. And it's just so uncertain, like day to day, week to week.

Kate Pepler: Yeah, exactly. And I think the thing that I struggled with most was like the responsibility I felt for my team. Um, and like wanting to make sure that everybody, everybody and my team and the community was safe. Um, so

Stu Murray: trying to work, what were some of the biggest lessons that you got coming out of?

Kate Pepler: Period that I can't be responsible for everybody.

Um, you can't hold the world up on your own. Um,

yeah, again, just to like, be kind to yourself, um, yeah, trust the team to, to make decisions. So we never change any COVID policies without [00:40:00] checking in with everybody. Um, I've never, yeah. We always make sure that everybody feels comfortable. And if like one person wants to keep masks up or barriers up, we that's what we do.

Um, so really just listening to the team, um, cuz we it's about all of us and the community, not just what I want.

Stu Murray: Yeah. Yeah. Those are some big lessons. How I, I think a lot of us too struggle with that being kind to ourselves. Like we, yeah, we're starting to get that whole being kind to others thing. In, in our various ways, although that's, I think an ongoing struggle for us, particularly in, in heated moments where there's divisiveness, we can lose that ability to, to be kind.

But what, what skills or tools did you have you found or developed over your journey to be more kind to yourself?

Kate Pepler: I think like first up, like, is this the truth or am I telling myself a story? Mm-hmm whether that's [00:41:00] like in personal relationships or work relationships or my own relationship with myself, um, is it reality or am I making stuff up and telling it to myself?

Um, I think that's been the biggest one and even still, um, working on that, um, but just Remi, reminding myself, like to check in, like when I'm starting to spiral, is it truth or is it a story? Um, And I think like, again, knowing that we can't be perfect, we can't do it all. Um, we can't hold the world up by ourselves.

Stu Murray: I love that so much. Is this true or is this story? Yeah, I think that is such a powerful tool, as you said, like in our relationships, not only with the, the relationship with ourselves, but the relationships we have with others, I I've really been meditating on the idea. That story is so much of our way of seeing the world that we're, we're meaning making [00:42:00] creatures.

And so all, all we use is anecdotes and metaphors and allegories and all of these ways of trying to make sense of this big, beautiful miracle that we're a part of that. So many of those stories we hold are, are so. Self deprecating. And they block us from, from deeper connection with ourselves. And, you know, if somebody told me once we, we don't see the world as it is, we see the world as we are.

And I think that's such a true reflection. And that what you've said is this true? Or is this story is something I've really been trying to work on. And my own self deprecating talk that I have. And, and really even with others, like one, one thing I've used as a tool is like, the story I'm telling myself is.

And so rather than say, I feel like you are the, so I feel that like, those aren't actually feelings. Yeah. If I'm saying, I feel like, or if I feel that I'm actually going to insert a story there, [00:43:00] right. And I'm confusing what I'm actually feeling in my body and what I'm feeling emotionally. With the story that I have wrapped around and, and so deconstructing our experience and what's actually alive with us with the story that we're telling ourselves yeah.

Is such a powerful tool for connection.

Kate Pepler: Absolutely. Yeah. It's been a big, a big shift for me. Um, cause I like like fights with my partner in my head and he's like, are we fighting?

Is this is a story. So yeah, it's a good, good tool, um, to, to have,

Stu Murray: I love that. I really, I really think that's powerful. And so how did the business go as, as you were moving through this pandemic, like, did that impact the business significantly obviously in terms of operations, but in the [00:44:00] flow of people.


Kate Pepler: definitely. And I think a big part of that has been the shift in people's perceptions, um, that it's not safe to shop bulk. Um, when like all the feedback we were getting to COVID was that, that was the, our store was the place people felt the most safe shopping at, um, just because of the procedures and policies.

Um, and. Uh, everything that we had in place to keep our team and community safe. Um, so I think a big thing, big shift has been in people's perceptions. Um, also like you're not people aren't commuting, so we're, they're not walking by and grabbing a coffee on their way to work or from at lunch break. Um, so even just, yeah, in this small day to day habits has changed how people act and how they shop.

Um, so that's been a big shift and we did actually open a second location, um, during COVID, um, in downtown Dartmouth. Um, and it was kind of already in the works pre COVID. Um, and [00:45:00] in, I think in new Brunswick too, it was like pretty chill after the first, first wave. Um, so we went through and didn't really have any cases and we were acting as normal.

The only thing was the borders were closed. Um, so COVID felt pretty. Like non-issue, I, I don't think any of us thought it would still be here, um, this far down the road. Uh, so like really accelerated the plans in 2020, um, and then opened the second location in January of 2021. And then we went into like six months of lockdown, like right after that.

So that one's really. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Even like, I think that must have been challenging. Yeah. A huge part of our success, um, with the first store was all of the events and, and outreach we did, um, when we first opened, so we couldn't have any events, we couldn't have our cafe. Like a lot of people pre COVID would come to our cafe and like get a coffee and like spy on people and like, see how it works.

Cuz [00:46:00] it's an intimidating thing, um, to, to come and like refill for the first time. So a lot of people would like come in and get a coffee or tea and like watch other people do it before they came back. Um, so we lost, you have a cafe. Yeah, we're also package free coffee shop. No way. Yeah. We don't have any disposable cups.

Stu Murray: So you can either bring reusable or sit down

Kate Pepler: with bugs for yeah,

Stu Murray: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. So, I mean, walk somebody through, who's never been, I mean, maybe some people have been to a bulk barn or these different things, but they're probably used to pulling the bags off. Yeah. Filling it up that way. Like what, what would.

An adventure look like at the Terra shop. Oh yeah.

Kate Pepler: So you can bring in any kind of container. You want glass, plastic, hummus, yogurt, containers, anything. It doesn't matter. Um, for all of the food stuff, it has to be clean and empty. Um, and then when you first come in, you bring all of your containers to the couch and we weigh [00:47:00] all of them for you.

And we've kept this instead of getting, um, I know a lot of stores have, um, like self weighing stations when you first come in, but where we get to weigh everybody's first, we get that opportunity to connect with the customer. Um, ask them if they've been before and we can walk them through how it all works.

Um, so I, yeah, I really like being able to connect with everybody who first friends in the store. Um, so we weigh all of your containers and, um, through COVID we put up filling stations. So you have your own little like, uh, kitchen island, basically, um, where you do all of the filling, um, pre COVID you, it was fill wherever you could fill.

Um, so people are like standing porn jars. So now. That was a good change that came through COVID is these like filling stations, you'll bring all of your containers to one of the counters, the filling stations. And you'll use that as like your home base. So you can go grab any of the products that you're getting and bring them to the station.

We have clean funnels and scoops, and we require to use a different scoop for every product, just to avoid any cross [00:48:00] contamination, um, and a used utensil bin at each station. And then when you're done, you bring all your containers back to the counter and the staffs, everything, and there's no math that the customer has to do.

That's also a frequently asked question. .

Stu Murray: That's awesome. So there's like a bunch of scoops at this I'm picturing kind of like one of those, uh, movable island kind of counter things that are yeah, yeah,

Kate Pepler: exactly. Yeah. Like I think they're Ikea islands that we, that we use for our stations. Um, so we have clean scoop and funnels in one area and then they use bids at each station.

Stu Murray: Yeah. So you can describe a new one and then when you're done with it, put it in there and then they're all disinfected and recycled through. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that sounds like a brilliant setup. It sounds maybe you've kept that since COVID as well. Yeah. Yeah.


Kate Pepler: here to say it's really nice. Like from the customer or user experience side to have a place to do your filling instead of [00:49:00] like crowding having a small counter where the jars are.

Stu Murray: Yeah. And I imagine in my adventure, through the tear shop, like I'd probably forget a jar here or there just as I get excited, filling up all the different where's all stuff. Yeah. It's kind of nice to be able to have that all stored in one little spot as I'm going and meandering about throughout the store.

Yeah. Yeah. So you decided, I mean, as you went, what what'd you do? Did you kind of do just like a, a new launch with the Dartmouth store as you got going post, like treated it as if it was a new launch? You'd pretty much open during a lockdown.

Kate Pepler: Yeah, we did like, um, I think it was in September last year. Um, so after like six months or whatever, being eight months of being open, we did like a, a re or like a launch relaunch, um, which was really fun.

Um, and I think in for this [00:50:00] year in October 3rd ish, that's the anniversary of the Halifax store. We'll do a big customer appreciation event at both stores. Um, on whatever day I decide, um, just to like celebrate both stores, the Halifax store being four years, um, restrictions are, are over though. We're still wear masks.

Um, yeah, we'll just celebrate our customer and community for, for sticking by us.

Stu Murray: I love that. That's that's amazing. And so this past year you decided to do your first impact report. Mm-hmm . What was the inspiration for that? Yeah, share more. Yeah.

Kate Pepler: I had collected all that data since the beginning and just hadn't done anything with it.

Um, so I have all of this information, um, and like I know, and I see it all and I can see, how much impact we have, and wanted to show the community that like, yes, [00:51:00] shopping with us does make a difference. It can seem like a really small choice, but if you're making a conscious effort to shop local, not just for my business, but all of the local suppliers that we support and purchase from you are supporting, the reduction of waste.

You're reusing what you have, um, and you're keeping plastic out of the waste stream. Um, so I thought it was, would be really important to, to highlight that and, and inspire the community again, to, to get back in store with us, um, and us and show that it does, it does matter and does make a difference.

Stu Murray: That's awesome. So what kind of metrics were you sharing? Like would you be able to, to pull off some of the, those big impact metrics? Yeah.

Kate Pepler: Like even as simple as like, we obviously, you know, through our sales reports, how many toothbrushes we've sold. Um, so every bamboo toothbrush we sell is one plastic toothbrush, not in the landfill.

And, um, like as you, as, you know, probably like [00:52:00] plastic, um, doesn't ever go away, it breaks apart into smaller and smaller and smaller pieces. Um, so it never truly goes away. So every plastic toothbrush that we save from the landfill is a huge accomplishment. Um, by the number of cafe drinks we've sold, we know how many disposable coffee cups we've sold or we've kept from the landfill.

Um, by the number of laundry units we've sold, we know how many plastic laundry did deterrant bottles. We've kept out of the, the waste stream. Um, so pulled all of those information, pulled data on our suppliers. Um, so I think we have 60% local suppliers, um, which is a huge,

Stu Murray: that's massive.

Kate Pepler: Yeah. I was really surprised by that.

Um, very pleasantly surprised by that. um, yeah, so our supplier metrics and data, um, we know how many B Corp businesses we support and we purchased from, um, so yeah, it was really cool to, to pull that all together and even, um, on the flip side of [00:53:00] that, we keep a lot of waste out of the, out of the waste stream, but we also put waste into it.

Um, so since we opened, we've recorded our waste, uh, we like weigh our compost, our recycling and our garbage, um, that we put out. So we are able to, to see how much we've, we've put out and, and try to work to, to lower those numbers and further reduce our waste.

Stu Murray: I really like that too, as a practice, I, I mean, I haven't heard of any store.

That's really recording their own waste and making that a metric to reduce. Obviously it makes sense that your group would be a leader in doing so, but it's, I have a feeling that will, the public will want to put more and more pressure on corporations to be sharing this information.

Kate Pepler: Yeah. Yeah. We often get asked like, okay, you say, you've put out this much waste.

What is that compared to like a Starbucks or like another grocery store? Like nobody [00:54:00] knows cuz they're not recording that stuff.

Stu Murray: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, even at that, I, when I was working at the waste management facility, way back as a public education coordinator, so I fi I saw my fair share. We, we were actually trying to move the, uh, the two stream into the three stream back in Southeast new Brunswick and.

Corporations to this day, do not have virtually any pressured, even sort three stream. So like corporate waste sorting. I don't know what it's like in Nova Scotia, but corporate waste sorting in new Brunswick is virtually still, you might have the bins in the store and that's the public perception of that.

Kate Pepler: Yeah, for sure. It's greenwashing.

Stu Murray: It is greenwashing. And so you think you're doing your part there and then all of a sudden it's going back and just being sent out. So it's still very much at the, at the seedling stage in terms of our relationship to waste that way. And [00:55:00] we are so disconnected societally from that process.

And it's easy. You know, I lived in, I lived in India and I've lived in Nepal in different places where waste management is still in its earliest phases. And so. You see mountains of waste and there's this guy who's walking down the alleyway with a little cart, picking up your garbage, but it's, it's so easy for us if we produce the amount of waste or if, if they produce the amount of waste that we did, man, they would have mountains, the size of Everest, of, of garbage.

And, and so we just have so, so, so much waste, but it goes to the edge of the curb and we don't see and magically it disappears.

Kate Pepler: Yeah. Yeah. It goes somewhere. There is now away. yeah. Yeah. So like I talk about this a lot, especially when I'm giving. Talks and presentations, but we're yeah. [00:56:00] We're so disconnected from everything, but from our waste, like you put yeah, exactly.

You put it in the garbage bin, it's likely a solid color with a lid and you don't think about what you created. So even when people are asking me what the best ways to reduce their waste, my first suggestion is to do a waste audit. So record everything that you put in or keep it on your counter so you can see it.

Um, and then from there you're like, okay, I had like 12 disposable coffee cups in my garbage this week. I can bring my on one next week or whatever it is, you can really easily see the type of garbage you're creating. And then from there make educated moves to reduce your waste.

Stu Murray: I love waste audits. so many people are, are so opposed.

But when I used to do a lot of that with, uh, students. A lot of them would get gross out and a lot of them would get super excited, but then they they'd learn so much. And not only seeing what we had and [00:57:00] took stock of that, but also seeing the different pathways that it could go and even saying, well, can this become posted, oh, this and looking like 40% of our stuff is going in the clear into the landfill.

Okay. What, how can we shift that? Right. Big changes.

Kate Pepler: A really good tool. I love, love waste

Stu Murray: audits as well. It's, it's humbling. It's very humbling. You're like, oh, I haven't even been looking at this stuff. And you know, if people are, oh, it's so gross. Like you had this two days ago. I mean, that's not, if it's that gross, then we should be really.

Yeah. Why do we have that? yeah. yeah, it's a, it is, it is a humbling process to go through though. And, and to start to diving into that, but we can learn. We can learn a lot about our ways and, and start to shift. And like you said, it it's just one little thing at a time. Absolutely. Yeah. Just one little action.

And I guess on that [00:58:00] note, like to young people or to people of any age who are struggling with coan anxiety or eco depression, and are feeling overwhelmed with kind of where we're at, like, do you have any, any tips or words of advice for, for those who are in the trenches?

Kate Pepler: Yeah, I would say, um, find something that inspires you and gets you excited.

No matter what it is, find community around around that as well, and make an action plan. So I used to get really, mad at myself and bummed out when I didn't pick up like every piece of garbage I saw walking my dog, but you can't pick up every single piece of garbage, you would never get anywhere.

Um, so if you're like on your walks commit to like picking up three pieces of garbage, like make small commitments to yourself, small action items to yourself, and stick to those. Um, so yeah, create small changes, find community, [00:59:00] and get involved is, is a huge

Stu Murray: one. Mm. Getting involved. Yeah, absolutely.

You've mentioned the word community like four times there. why, why is, why is community so important?

Kate Pepler: I think when you feel yeah. When you feel isolated and alone in an issue, um, what's the point, but when you find the community within or around an issue, um, you could all support one another, all uplift each other and inspire each other.

Um, and have the, have the support, um, to, to move through and navigate and, and create change.

Stu Murray: Yeah. Agreed. It's, it's definitely a huge way to, to be able to pull that forward. And I, I think community is going to be a huge part of building resiliency in our, in our systems as we go forward. Like yeah, if we want to go far, we need to go together.

It's it's gonna be the only way.

Kate Pepler: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [01:00:00] Community is so important for moving how we're gonna get out of this and move forward. And, and community care is so important.

Stu Murray: Somebody interested in the very early stages. So. Say they've taken your advice. Step one sounds like doing a waste audit would be an excellent intro.

If somebody's interested in the zero waste movements or reducing their waste, at least just becoming more conscious and they could do so like on a tarp or anywhere, just take it outside and you don't have to do it necessarily on your kitchen counter. So quell some of those hesitations from people, but say, say they do that.

And they, they hire an aside inspiration. What would be some of the next steps or possible pathways that you would offer somebody? If they're looking to go deeper into that world?

Kate Pepler: Yeah, I would say, make commitments to yourself, whether that's not to get a coffee, unless you have your coffee cup, reasonable coffee cup, or always bringing your reasonable shopping bags, um, make [01:01:00] commitments to yourself.

And I think that to yourself is really important. If you are making a change for me, um, that's not gonna stick around. Um, so make the change the commitment, um, promise to yourself, um, and go from there, um, make, as you run out of things, it's way more wasteful obviously to go to your pantry and throw everything that's in plastic out.

So as you run out of things, refill those plastic bags, even, um, or refill get some jars, um, there's a lot of good repurposed. Um, so as you replace things, as you run out, um, Google is also your best friend. Mm-hmm

Stu Murray: yeah. Google can be wonderful tool. Yeah. Yeah. And it is, it's just one step at a time. It's. It's to bring it back to what you said earlier is like, we're not going to go to the, the Kate journey right away where we've got all of our waste in one jar.

It's being patient with ourselves and, and not necessarily seeking for progress rather than perfection. [01:02:00] Totally. Yeah. It's kind of being so important. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. So what's, what's next with the, the Terra shop journey. You got the, the two businesses going right now and things are smooth. Do you have any big plans or do you wanna just keep, keep on refining and going.


Kate Pepler: honestly, just still focusing on surviving. COVID hit us hard. Um, and we're still like trying to crawl our way out of that. Um, now that, um, things are opening back up, we have a lot of events happening, um, so really excited to be doing events and some of that more like educational community based, um, piece of the puzzle that we have been missing for so long.

Um, we have one staff member who's really keen on, um, the event planning and they've put on some open mic nights and they have some more, um, schedules. So that's really exciting to be able to do events. Um, so yeah, surviving and then hosting events is, is what's next for us?

Stu Murray: yeah. [01:03:00] It's it is unfortunate. The kink that that's all put in, but I'm, I'm sure, like you said, you've got some juicy lessons that come out and yeah, you're, you're bringing so much value to community and to that more beautiful world that.

We know is possible. And, and so I have faith that you guys will move beyond surviving and into thriving in so many different ways. And I love that you're offering a space to build and facilitate community and education at the same time. I mean, those things go parallel and in my perspective, so I think that's really, really, really beautiful.

Thank you. Yeah. And if somebody. Was interested in connecting, be it, the events wants to maybe sponsor team up do or just come and yeah. Experience the tear shop where, where can they go and what can they do?

Kate Pepler: Absolutely. So on all the social media channels, we're at the tear shop. Um, our website is the tear [01:04:00]

You can sign up for our newsletter. Um, and I send it all of the events, um, and like special deals and promos and, um, other educational things, um, through the newsletter, um, as well as on our social media channel. So follows on social media, check out our website and sign up for our newsletter. And you can always email us

Stu Murray: Love that. Okay. I'll make sure that all of that information is included in the show notes, too, for anybody interested, wanting to harness that inspiration, or maybe, you know, you'll start to inspire some more popup shops around as we build this movement, cuz. We know, it's, it's clear that we need more of these happening all over the place, so hopefully we can follow your lead that way.

And last question for you and let's do you have any other message that you'd like to, to share?

Kate Pepler: I don't think so. I think we covered a lot. Yeah,

Stu Murray: we sure have. Yeah. [01:05:00] so what, what is your big vision to help see humanity and society move forward?

Kate Pepler: Whoa, ending on, on a big one. Yeah.

I think just making our, our spaces and our communities more accessible, um, is a really, really big one when we exclude people for movements. Um, I think you're setting yourself up for failure. Um, I think it's really important to be inclusive, being accessible. So it's always been, um, Important to, to me in, in the journey of the Terra shop.

And I've definitely learned and grown a lot. I've made a lot of mistakes, um, and learned from them. Um, so creating more accessible spaces and communities, um, I think is really important. And then that ties into so many different things from food security, to housing, healthcare, [01:06:00] um, everything. Yeah.

Stu Murray: I love it. Yeah. Let's bring, bring everyone around the table. Cause yeah, we need to, we should, the only time we should be reaching out an arm for somebody is to help pick 'em up. Absolutely. We can bring everybody on this journey together. I, I love that so much, Kate. Yeah. Thank you for taking the time I look forward to following the Tara shop journey.

And when I'm in Halifax to come visit, sit down, have a coffee. Let's do it. Yeah. Go set up. Yeah, that'd be awesome. I look forward to it. Awesome. Well, thanks so much. Thank you. Take care. We'll talk soon. Cheer.

Thanks for tuning into this episode. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did make sure to subscribe to this podcast and follow me on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok at Stu Murray podcast. Check out the [01:07:00] Stu Murray podcast available on all streaming platforms and leave a comment or a review.

Let me know if this episode resonated with you and what you want to hear more of as we move forward in the future. Thank you so much. And I'll see you next Monday.

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